Amy Winehouse Passed Away

[raywaters11]

I'm ignorant because I don't feel sorry for people who fuck up the opportunities they are afforded that others don't have...and to be considered intelligent then I have to mourn someone that I never cared for in the first place?
Brilliant, Sofi. If that's the case, color me happy to be ignorant.
You say "succumbing to addiction" like it's something we're all being forced into. You're wrong. Addicts make a decision to do their drug of choice in the first place, thus leading to their addiction, and people like you are enablers.

 

[Ristol]

I'm ignorant because I don't feel sorry for people who fuck up the opportunities they are afforded that others don't have...and to be considered intelligent then I have to mourn someone that I never cared for in the first place?
Brilliant, Sofi. If that's the case, color me happy to be ignorant.
You say "succumbing to addiction" like it's something we're all being forced into. You're wrong. Addicts make a decision to do their drug of choice in the first place, thus leading to their addiction, and people like you are enablers.

So addiction isn't real? Okay Tom Cruise, I'm glad it's that easy for you. Here's what you're leaving out: many, many people make the same decisions addicts do. Addicts live in the real world and guess what? They don't know they're addicts until they take their drug of choice. That's the sneakiness, the evil of addiction. If a non-addict makes the decision to drink a beer, chances are they won't end up at their grandmother's house with a rope tied to their penis (what's up Entourage fans?). If an addict makes the decision to take one pill or drink one beer, it's a different game entirely. You're ignoring the chemical fact of addiction and yes, you're being ignorant.

 

[dilla]

We can kill ourselves in the name of an eight-ball. Get sympathy. "I had an addiction."

Kill someone in the name of Allah. "Religion should die. They were slaves to 'magical scriptures.'"

 

[dilla]

So addiction isn't real? Okay Tom Cruise, I'm glad it's that easy for you. Here's what you're leaving out: many, many people make the same decisions addicts do. Addicts live in the real world and guess what? They don't know they're addicts until they take their drug of choice. That's the sneakiness, the evil of addiction. If a non-addict makes the decision to drink a beer, chances are they won't end up at their grandmother's house with a rope tied to their penis (what's up Entourage fans?). If an addict makes the decision to take one pill or drink one beer, it's a different game entirely. You're ignoring the chemical fact of addiction and yes, you're being ignorant.

You mention Entourage. What happened in last night's episode when Vince came back from rehab? How does he change and what is his mentality and attitude for the future? That he can overcome it. It's just a TV show, but that doesn't mean people like that don't exist. Whether it's luck or truly is determination to overcome it, some people can get over their addictions. I don't understand why it's not ok to not coddle them and bawl our eyes out for them.

Anyone care to share a story of someone they know that was addicted once? Or have you just been feigning your understanding of addiction based upon a close one that suffered from it? Because I'd love to hear it. I've seen plenty of athletes knock the habit of addiction of any kind. So I have my examples (of people not close to me).

 

[S O F I]

I'm ignorant because I don't feel sorry for people who fuck up the opportunities they are afforded that others don't have...and to be considered intelligent then I have to mourn someone that I never cared for in the first place?
Brilliant, Sofi. If that's the case, color me happy to be ignorant.
You say "succumbing to addiction" like it's something we're all being forced into. You're wrong. Addicts make a decision to do their drug of choice in the first place, thus leading to their addiction, and people like you are enablers.

I didn't say you're ignorant because you don't mourn people who die or feel sorry for them. You're ignorant when it comes to mental health issues and what goes on in people's heads. People with mental health issues and psychological problems don't just wake up one day and tell themselves, "Today, I'm going to be happy because I'm rich and have opportunities." It doesn't work that way.

How am I an enabler exactly...

 

[raywaters11]

I didn't say addiction isn't real, I said addiction is caused because of their choice. I literally said "thus causing their addiction" so I literally typed out addiction was real. I have no idea where you even read that.
There are members of this website that I don't like (surprise!) and if they got addicted to drugs and overdosed I'd still say fuck them. Why should I mourn a celebrity I don't care for if I wouldn't mourn a board member I don't care for?
Sofi, I had a cousin that was addicted to pain pills, stole from family, committed insurance fraud, he was a shitbag and he died from it. I feel horrible for his mother and father as well as the rest of our family that were closer to him than me but I don't mourn him because, frankly, the world is better off without him. I took care of people with mental health issues for over three years. I know their medications, I know their addictions, I know their whole life stories and what caused their illnesses. I'm sure I have more first hand experience with it than you ever will.

 

[S O F I]

If that's the case, how can you trivialize their mental states and call them weak?

As Jokerman said, some people are more predisposed to addictive behaviors than others. While people do make the conscious choice to use drugs, they don't make the conscious choice to be in a very unhappy place mentally and that's what I'm trying to say.

 

[raywaters11]

The only common grounds I can see us agreeing on is that you're saying the person isn't in the right state of mind before becoming addicted? I can't tell if that's what you're trying to say. Sad or stressed (in the case of celebrities especially) people looking for a refuge in drugs or other unhealthy ways? I can kinda see that.
But people who get involved with drugs because of what other people say or do, i.e. giving in to peer pressure, are weak or lack will power. And that was the most dominant gateway I've seen mentioned in this thread, "they see everyone else is doing it so they do it, too"

 

[Flipmo]

I know addicts, but they're not in the clear, and never will be. It seems to be a lot more in control than in the past, but the damage is already done, and as well, I never get the full story because I can be a loose cannon in certain situations.

 

[S O F I]

But people who get involved with drugs because of what other people say or do, i.e. giving in to peer pressure, are weak or lack will power. And that was the most dominant gateway I've seen mentioned in this thread, "they see everyone else is doing it so they do it, too"

Where in this thread?

 

[Shadows]

I honestly used to feel the same way as Ray and Coonie...and for the record, I don't go against them, i just state my view.

When my brother and sister were a certain way, i thought, man...we grew up extremely similar, and they chose that way. So FUCK THEM, they are weak, they stole from us, hurt my family and all that blah blah. Then i realized, you know what? Everyone has their own story, own way of thinking and so forth. I spent time with my sister and realized, that's exactly what she needed. I feel she hasn't, even at the age of 30, discovered her self yet, or refuses to let anyone in because no one truly cared to know her., She knew what was right from wrong, but didn't know how to carry it on.

"I would cry amongst my treasured friends
but who do you know that stops that long
to help another carry on...?"
In the end, I just wish more people got help, whether they are weak, sick or whatever.

It starts at rehab. One must get clean, and I think Amy Whinehouses hit not wanting to go to rehab shows exactly what she should have done to start to get help, because believe me, Rehab is NOT that answer. It's another equation that leads to the huge solution. I wouldn't even say the start of the solution either, for everyone, it's different.

 

[Pittsey]

You mention Entourage. What happened in last night's episode when Vince came back from rehab? How does he change and what is his mentality and attitude for the future? That he can overcome it. It's just a TV show, but that doesn't mean people like that don't exist. Whether it's luck or truly is determination to overcome it, some people can get over their addictions. I don't understand why it's not ok to not coddle them and bawl our eyes out for them.

Anyone care to share a story of someone they know that was addicted once? Or have you just been feigning your understanding of addiction based upon a close one that suffered from it? Because I'd love to hear it. I've seen plenty of athletes knock the habit of addiction of any kind. So I have my examples (of people not close to me).

That's what is really weak about Entourage recently. Poor plot lines. Schizophrenic characters. It isn't true to real life.

And yes, people beat addiciton. Not every addict dies. But it's not easy. And most addicts find they have to stay off all drugs even those they didn't have a problem with. A life of sobreity is the only possible life.

And I thought this thread was a good discussion. I didn't think people were trolling, just that their opinions differed. I used to be cold too, but as I experienced more in life, and have met people with addiction issues first hand, I have opened up my mind.

 

[raywaters11]

I noticed When my sibling would sober up, and see someone else do it, she'd decide to do it.

... her other friend had no siblings and got into the addiction but needed someone else to keep up with her addiction...if not she'd slit her wrists..

That's one, and that's not a bash on Jesse or his sister at all, it's just an example of the actions I was talking about.
I don't consider speaking my mind is trolling on this subject, because let's face it, if I wanted to troll someone I would take it to one of the MANY veganism or religion/science threads and that is much easier to troll because people take it more serious.
I'm not saying I'm BETTER than Amy Winehouse at all, Lord knows when I have had a shitty week I walk to the nearest bar and stumble back a few hours later wreaking of nachos and sin. But I'd like to think if I can handle my "habit" then other older and presumably more mature adults should be able to do it, too. It just seems like common sense to me, to some extent.

 

[Casey]

when I have had a shitty week I walk to the nearest bar and stumble back a few hours later wreaking of nachos and sin. But I'd like to think if I can handle my "habit" then other older and presumably more mature adults should be able to do it, too.

People have different perceptions of what level "handling their habit" is and therein lies the problem. Everyone's gonna draw the line in a different place and for the most part, not be able to be objective about it. Alcoholics don't start out killing a bottle of rum or two every day just like smokers don't start out smoking a pack a day.

People build up a tolerance over time and so they don't notice the grip of addiction worsening. It's "the boiling frog effect" - the idea that you if you drop a frog into a bowl of hot water it will jump out, but if you put it into cold water that slowly gets hotter, it won't notice and get boiled to death.

I find it hard to understand when people (in general) can't sympathize with addiction and make ignorant blanket statements. Essentially, it's a disease. A small, easy to make mistake quickly led to something out of their control. People don't "choose" to be addicts. Do you condemn every smoker that dies of lung disease or emphysema? Do you condemn every coffee drinker who gets heart problems from caffeine overload? Those are addictions too.

It's like saying you don't feel bad for people with STD's who may have been caught up in the heat of passion and not had caution. Except it's easier for anyone to relate to that.

I just don't think there's anything to gain by not having compassion. Everyone has a vice, in one way or another. We should try and help people with addictions, as much as possible. Even when they are stubborn and may not want to be helped. I feel the same way about people with poor diets. Fast food is an addiction too. In most cases, it's simply a lack of education about what people are really doing to themselves. And people don't tend to want to hear the truth, but don't we have a responsibility to tell them? Isn't it selfish to not share knowledge to try and exert a positive influence?

Also, the whole thing about you being able to handle your habit or vice probably just points to the fact that you don't suffer from extraneous issues that complicate whatever that vice may be. Many addicts suffer from emotional damage or trauma, for all kinds of reasons that may not be their own fault. We don't always know what they are, but if we did it might be easier for people to have some compassion.

 

[keco52]

Compassion fatigue.

 

[THEV1LL4N]

fuck off this is a tribute thread:

 

[Casey]

On the final aftershow following Prince's 21 nights sold out at the O2 London in 2007, Amy joined him on stage and sang "Love Is A Losing Game" (her best song IMO) while he played guitar...

Video here - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xafxro_prince-amy-winehouse-love-is-a-losi_music

 

[Jokerman]

The problem with this post is the implicit assumption that you can "think through your situation and work toward change". Sometimes, there's no way out but feeding your addiction and eventual death.

Yes, my post was mainly addressing the psychological reasons some would start using. Of course, there is a point in which thinking through it won't be enough. But I don't believe there's no way out but by giving in to the addiction and eventually death. With the right treatment one can find the commitment and tools necessary to help in recovery. With help, the addict needs to adopt an alternative lifestyle (goth or Freemasonry) that replaces the destructive patterns of addiction. Yes, it will be with them for life, but effectively maintained. Just like depression. We shouldn't give up hope. Nearly half of addicts who have been in treatment have been able to effectively remain stable.

Addiction is riddled with misconceptions. Since the discussion has turned to compassion or blame, I want to mention the biological aspects. Addiction is not a willpower problem. Addicts don't have weak characters, they're not willfully self-destructive, and they're not selfish. It's not a moral shortcoming. Blaming the person has no place in this. Addiction is a chronic relapsing brain disorder. Using drugs and alcohol repeatedly over time alters brain chemistry and function. This undermines voluntary control. Drugs affect neuronal circuits. Brain imaging studies of addicted people reveal disruption to regions that are important for normal decision-making and judgment. So the very mental resources such a person needs to overcome addiction is impaired by addiction.

Also, we need to keep in mind that a good percent of addicts have co-occurring mental or emotional disorders, such as depression, and they use drugs to self-medicate. Unless the treatment for their addiction also includes treatment of their psychological problem, it will usually fail.

And when do most people start using drugs and alcohol? When they are teens. Most teens are a mess. They hate themselves, their looks, their social skills and place, school, having to listen to parents, etc. And if they have family conflict or parental alcohol or drug abuse, they're really at risk for drug use. Then there's peer pressure. Experimentation begins in the teen years. So they are very susceptible to trying and continuing to use something that makes them feel good or better than they do most of the time. Risk-taking is what teens do. And because teens are still developing physically, biologically, and psychologically, they are at a higher risk of becoming addicted when they use during this time. They are more vulnerable, biologically and psychologically. The brain of a teen is very much still forming, and when you throw a brain-altering drug into the mix, you're messing all kinds of things up. Different neuro-adaptations result than in the adult brain. Now that shit is a part of the development of their brain and their psychology. This includes prescription drugs that so many adolescents are being giving for behavioral problems or depression. Same with smoking. It's easier for adolescents to become addicted to nicotine from less exposure than adults. Nicotine receptors in the brain are changed easier.

These teens then become adults who know better and want to stop, but their ability to make clear decisions has been impaired. In many ways, an addicted person becomes a bystander as their affliction takes over their rational thinking. Of course we should have compassion for them. Something like 20-30 million ppl in the US have drug or alcohol addictions. Should we write them off as losers? Let them pay the price for their addictions? Of course not. Some are our loved ones. Being rich has nothing to do with it. Yeah, rich and famous teens become spoiled. Who knows what emotional issues they have with fame in addition to being teens. But they make the wrong choices to deal with them. Now their brains have been altered and the most their willpower can do is eventually try treatment. Addicts don't need self-control, and they don't require discipline. They need treatment.

 

[S O F I]

Addicts don't have weak characters, they're not willfully self-destructive, and they're not selfish. It's not a moral shortcoming. Blaming the person has no place in this. Addiction is a chronic relapsing brain disorder. Using drugs and alcohol repeatedly over time alters brain chemistry and function. This undermines voluntary control. Drugs affect neuronal circuits. Brain imaging studies of addicted people reveal disruption to regions that are important for normal decision-making and judgment. So the very mental resources such a person needs to overcome addiction is impaired by addiction.

Quoted for emphasis. Also, I believe this applies to suicidal people.

 

[Casey]

Addiction is riddled with misconceptions. Since the discussion has turned to compassion or blame, I want to mention the biological aspects. Addiction is not a willpower problem. Addicts don't have weak characters, they're not willfully self-destructive, and they're not selfish. It's not a moral shortcoming. Blaming the person has no place in this. Addiction is a chronic relapsing brain disorder. Using drugs and alcohol repeatedly over time alters brain chemistry and function. This undermines voluntary control. Drugs affect neuronal circuits. Brain imaging studies of addicted people reveal disruption to regions that are important for normal decision-making and judgment. So the very mental resources such a person needs to overcome addiction is impaired by addiction.

Sums it up.