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Well, first this quote ignores the fact that clearly, positive morality is simply the right way to act and doesn't require some sort of looming judging potential threat to "scare" us into acting the right way.
For me it's just Karma, and not in some mystical way - simply the basic principle of that if you treat others well, others will treat you well, by and large. If you treat people like shit, people will treat you like shit.
Why not rob a bank? Well, because more likely than not you'll end up in jail for a long time, and as an atheist, I'm acutely aware that we only have this one existence and I'd rather it not be wasted.
Being "good" - or acting compassionately and with morality - does not require a "reason". It is it's own reason. And if you really need one, well, let's just say it's for the purpose of having a more enjoyable life.
For me it's just Karma, and not in some mystical way - simply the basic principle of that if you treat others well, others will treat you well, by and large. If you treat people like shit, people will treat you like shit.
Why not rob a bank? Well, because more likely than not you'll end up in jail for a long time, and as an atheist, I'm acutely aware that we only have this one existence and I'd rather it not be wasted.
Being "good" - or acting compassionately and with morality - does not require a "reason". It is it's own reason. And if you really need one, well, let's just say it's for the purpose of having a more enjoyable life.
It's the law.
Just because there is no omnipotent being to stop us being bad and to punish us, does that mean we are free to do everything that religion has warned us against?
Let's change the wording of the quote a little.
Because if there is no such thing as cosmic justice, what is the point of being good? That’s the one thing that no one has ever explained to me. Why shouldn’t I go abuse a child, especially if I’m smart enough to get away with it? What’s stopping me?”
I may be taking it to extremes, but I think it shows that just because there isn't a god, or I may believe there isn't, it doesn't make me a socially irresponsible, evil person.
Robbing a bank is almost a victimless crime (banks are evil and insured). But if you start to mention that someone got killed during the robbery it changes the dynamic a little. I'd say atheists value human life more than anyone. They don't believe in heaven, reincarnation or a paradise. Death is final.
Just because there is no omnipotent being to stop us being bad and to punish us, does that mean we are free to do everything that religion has warned us against?
Let's change the wording of the quote a little.
Because if there is no such thing as cosmic justice, what is the point of being good? That’s the one thing that no one has ever explained to me. Why shouldn’t I go abuse a child, especially if I’m smart enough to get away with it? What’s stopping me?”
I may be taking it to extremes, but I think it shows that just because there isn't a god, or I may believe there isn't, it doesn't make me a socially irresponsible, evil person.
Robbing a bank is almost a victimless crime (banks are evil and insured). But if you start to mention that someone got killed during the robbery it changes the dynamic a little. I'd say atheists value human life more than anyone. They don't believe in heaven, reincarnation or a paradise. Death is final.
I forgot the correct word, Chronic once called me it, but he's right. There is no such thing as "morals", morals are opinions of people, they change to suit people and vary from place to place.
Pitts just used an example of abusing children, but a only several decades ago, child abuse was normal practice, there was nothing immoral about it at the time, but opinions changed and made it immoral. A hundred years ago, it was normal for a 12 year old girl to be legally married and bearing a child, there was no consideration of it being immoral, it was just normal, but again, opinions changed, and it became immoral.
Morals are there for the less intelligent, just like religion, who need some one to tell them what is right and wrong because they can't work it out for themselves using logic and reasoning.
Pitts just used an example of abusing children, but a only several decades ago, child abuse was normal practice, there was nothing immoral about it at the time, but opinions changed and made it immoral. A hundred years ago, it was normal for a 12 year old girl to be legally married and bearing a child, there was no consideration of it being immoral, it was just normal, but again, opinions changed, and it became immoral.
Morals are there for the less intelligent, just like religion, who need some one to tell them what is right and wrong because they can't work it out for themselves using logic and reasoning.
After reading that, I robbed a bank and started a meth lab with my former chemistry teacher.
What would stop him from robbing a bank? The same things that stop Christians from doing it. They don't do it because they don't want to go to jail, and it's not the kind of society they want to live in. Bad things are bad because they're bad for an individual or for society in general. You either care about that or you don't. I've never heard of any psychopaths who keep themselves from doing bad things because they're worried about divine justice.
What would stop him from robbing a bank? The same things that stop Christians from doing it. They don't do it because they don't want to go to jail, and it's not the kind of society they want to live in. Bad things are bad because they're bad for an individual or for society in general. You either care about that or you don't. I've never heard of any psychopaths who keep themselves from doing bad things because they're worried about divine justice.
What I am saying is if you need morals/religion in your life to make the correct choices, then you obviously lack the intelligence to make that decision yourself. Making the right choice has no bearing on whether its immoral or not. If you're having difficulty understanding this, you probably need morals.
If I had no morals I'd steal the shit out of our local stores because I know how to do it, with little to no risk of being caught. Morals are what makes me feel bad for people who work in that store, and that's what prevents me from stealing. It has little to do with intelligence. It's in my genes and the way I was raised.
Fear of a higher being punishing me for that is a totally different story though and has nothing to do with morals in my book. That's fear of being punished, which works just like fear of going to jail for many religious folks.
Your dog will stop thinking about pissing on your bed because you disapprove it just like an average person will not think of robbing a bank because that's how we are raised. I believe that religion's set of rules used to help with that - if you don't get caught stealing your neighbor's goat you'll get eternally punished by Gods anyway.
Fear of a higher being punishing me for that is a totally different story though and has nothing to do with morals in my book. That's fear of being punished, which works just like fear of going to jail for many religious folks.
Your dog will stop thinking about pissing on your bed because you disapprove it just like an average person will not think of robbing a bank because that's how we are raised. I believe that religion's set of rules used to help with that - if you don't get caught stealing your neighbor's goat you'll get eternally punished by Gods anyway.
That is not what morals are, what you are describing is the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong.
Morals are opinions, they vary on peoples beliefs to suit them, whether it be through self delusion, religion or culture. Thats why something that immoral in one place in the world or history can be moral at another place or time.
The ability to tell if difference between and wrong is a result of intelligence, not beliefs.
Morals are opinions, they vary on peoples beliefs to suit them, whether it be through self delusion, religion or culture. Thats why something that immoral in one place in the world or history can be moral at another place or time.
The ability to tell if difference between and wrong is a result of intelligence, not beliefs.
The point is that our morals are a part of how we tell right from wrong. If I'd be smart but without morals I'd steal from that local store anyway because I know that I cause harm but I wouldn't give a shit because it's good for me as an unit. However thanks to my morals I'd feel compassion and I'd suffer from stings of remorse later. I'd feel like shit, and that's not because of intelligence (you can be intelligent and selfish at the same time) but my feelings towards myself after what I've done.
Nihilism is incompatable with human nature though. The only nihilists around, if you can even call them that, are sick people. People who have proverbally had the life beaten out of them. So although the basic tenets of nihilism are true it's not the end of the story. If you call yourself a nihilist you are showing that you are in fact not a nihilist. There is an (emotional) importance to you (even if you don't realize it on a cognitive level) for talking about nihilism, which negates nihilism in your life.
"I find it important to note that nothing in life is important".
I would guess that most people who claim to be nihilists are really just shutting themselves off from a pain they felt due to caring too much. A rationalisation of feelings, or lack there of, as a result of a defense mechanism.
More specifically to this thread there is moral nihilism, which I find to be truth. There are no morals values compatable with objective reality. However that only talks about morals on a philosophical level and completely ignores morality on a biological basis. In that sense morality seems to be a combination of perceiving things as good (positive for your survivial) and bad (negative for your survival) combined with an ever-present need for control (if Casey Anthony had been found guilty that need for control would subside and most people would no longer care about the murdered child, very few actually did in the first place ... justice would have been done, the world would have been "right" again). Can you talk about morality in the way that Christians do? With good and bad being cemented as divine justice, unchangeable. You can't. But everyone adheres to certain believes and you can discuss things within those believes. For example every single person I know believes that killing is immoral so it's only a natual extention of that believe that eating meat is immoral. Outside of that, you can't talk about it as immoral behavior. I don't think many people would like to live "outside" of that though and as I mentioned earlier it's impossible to genuiely live by moral nihilism (you would be suppressing your natural sense of morality on a constant basis).
In the end it comes down to emotions. It can be difficult to talk about what a "normal" person is but with so many specimens around and our history we can draw some objective conclusions about what a normal person is. To give a definition, a normal person is a physically and mentally healthy, well-adjusted individual. One of those normal attributes would be an emotional connection to other individuals and mankind as a whole. Another would be empathy (not to be mistaken with sympathy). With those two attributes most people will come to the same conclusion about the morality of killing another person and the people who don't most likely have an emotional investment in believing otherwise. I wouldn't be able to objectively convince a sociopath of the immorality of hurting people if they chose to do so but for the most part I just feel a certain way and that's fine by me.
"I find it important to note that nothing in life is important".
I would guess that most people who claim to be nihilists are really just shutting themselves off from a pain they felt due to caring too much. A rationalisation of feelings, or lack there of, as a result of a defense mechanism.
More specifically to this thread there is moral nihilism, which I find to be truth. There are no morals values compatable with objective reality. However that only talks about morals on a philosophical level and completely ignores morality on a biological basis. In that sense morality seems to be a combination of perceiving things as good (positive for your survivial) and bad (negative for your survival) combined with an ever-present need for control (if Casey Anthony had been found guilty that need for control would subside and most people would no longer care about the murdered child, very few actually did in the first place ... justice would have been done, the world would have been "right" again). Can you talk about morality in the way that Christians do? With good and bad being cemented as divine justice, unchangeable. You can't. But everyone adheres to certain believes and you can discuss things within those believes. For example every single person I know believes that killing is immoral so it's only a natual extention of that believe that eating meat is immoral. Outside of that, you can't talk about it as immoral behavior. I don't think many people would like to live "outside" of that though and as I mentioned earlier it's impossible to genuiely live by moral nihilism (you would be suppressing your natural sense of morality on a constant basis).
In the end it comes down to emotions. It can be difficult to talk about what a "normal" person is but with so many specimens around and our history we can draw some objective conclusions about what a normal person is. To give a definition, a normal person is a physically and mentally healthy, well-adjusted individual. One of those normal attributes would be an emotional connection to other individuals and mankind as a whole. Another would be empathy (not to be mistaken with sympathy). With those two attributes most people will come to the same conclusion about the morality of killing another person and the people who don't most likely have an emotional investment in believing otherwise. I wouldn't be able to objectively convince a sociopath of the immorality of hurting people if they chose to do so but for the most part I just feel a certain way and that's fine by me.
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