Religion = Evil [RIP Dr. George Tiller]

Euphanasia

Well-Known Member
Keeping Jokerman's last post in mind while replying to this, I think it's safe to say that a believer's happiness IS NOT detrimental to yours. From your posts on this board, we have a good sense of where your lack of happiness stems from and there's nobody to "blame" but you.
It's not safe to say that. As long as there are people in this world that adhere to certain beliefs about the universe without evidence, our safety and happiness is put in jeopardy. Not only do these religious people harbor ridiculous beliefs, they are often willing to kill and die for them. To say that this poses no threat to an individuals happiness strongly suggests that you're in a state of denial or at least ignorant in the matter.

As far as my own happiness or lack of happiness, I wasn't trying to get personal and talk about my happiness as an individual. That is an entirely separate issue. Although I am curious as to what you mean by your last sentence (off topic)?
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
It's not safe to say that. As long as there are people in this world that adhere to certain beliefs about the universe without evidence, our safety and happiness is put in jeopardy. Not only do these religious people harbor ridiculous beliefs, they are often willing to kill and die for them. To say that this poses no threat to an individuals happiness strongly suggests that you're in a state of denial or at least ignorant in the matter.
So why don't you blame these people instead?
You could as well blame any belief to create murderers. Football or music fans for example. Should football and music be banned?
 

Jurhum

Well-Known Member
All of you atheists are going to hell. and we(religious people) will be watching you burn and laugh at your sorry asses. Bwahahahaha
 

Euphanasia

Well-Known Member
So why don't you blame these people instead?
You could as well blame any belief to create murderers. Football or music fans for example. Should football and music be banned?

My belief in football is not going to kill anybody. My belief that an omnipotent, omniscient being wrote the Bible or the Koran and I must adhere to what it says is a very different matter indeed.




All of you atheists are going to hell. and we(religious people) will be watching you burn and laugh at your sorry asses. Bwahahahaha
I don't even need to refute this. This only further supports the argument that Casey Rain, Sebastian, Glockmatic and myself have been advocating.

If religion is good, if it is truly good, why does it make its followers say such things?

Hi. I'm religious. I'm moral. I love God. By the way, I can't wait to watch you burn in hell so I can laugh at you.

That's not detrimental to society at all.
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
That's a highly debated topic. I find it funny the confidence with which glockmatic states his opinion. Most "important and influential scientists" lists have Darwin as top 5 but I haven't seen him ranked first anywhere. But whatever..
Most lists are voted on by normal everyday people, of course they'll pick the big names like Einstein and Newton over Darwin. Without his theory there would be no biology, modern agriculture, modern medicine, molecular biology etc etc. We would also still be on our pedestal, thinking we're different from the animals. Personally I believe life would be much worse without those fields, but hey thats just my opinion.
 

Bobby Sands

Well-Known Member
My belief in football is not going to kill anybody. My belief that an omnipotent, omniscient being wrote the Bible or the Koran and I must adhere to what it says is a very different matter indeed.






I don't even need to refute this. This only further supports the argument that Casey Rain, Sebastian, Glockmatic and myself have been advocating.

If religion is good, if it is truly good, why does it make its followers say such things?

Hi. I'm religious. I'm moral. I love God. By the way, I can't wait to watch you burn in hell so I can laugh at you.

That's not detrimental to society at all.
^^did we all fucking say it did we?

no, one guy who hardly ever posts here said it as a joke.

but alas calling every religious person evil and ignorant is ok.

And for you information plenty of people have lost their lives in the past over a game of football. believe it or not.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
My belief in football is not going to kill anybody. My belief that an omnipotent, omniscient being wrote the Bible or the Koran and I must adhere to what it says is a very different matter indeed.
Football fans often offend or kill other people, especially football fans of other teams.
Normal people don't kill other people under any means. No common religion tells you to kill.


I don't even need to refute this. This only further supports the argument that Casey Rain, Sebastian, Glockmatic and myself have been advocating.

If religion is good, if it is truly good, why does it make its followers say such things?

Hi. I'm religious. I'm moral. I love God. By the way, I can't wait to watch you burn in hell so I can laugh at you.
lol

I'm pretty sure it was a joke by Jurhum.

It's hilarious how religious people and atheists perceive themselves.

I think it looks sort of like this.
Atheist:


Religious person:
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
Einstein did not believe in a higher being, as he clearly stated:

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." And: "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."

What he did do was play around with the word God and used it tongue-in-cheek as a metaphor for the physical laws of the universe. So he would say things like, "God doesn't play dice with the Universe." But that wasn't an expression of personal belief, except to the religious who jump on anything they get that looks favorable to their side.

In two surveys done in 1916 and in 1996, it turns out that for both years about 40% of scientists say they believe in God. That's much lower than the general population, and if they included doctors in those surveys, that would explain the majority of that 40%, since most doctors are unscientifc.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I'd consider myself agnostic if I *had* to put a label on it, but I don't feel torn up the way Darwin, and probably many others, do.

I'm agnostic in that I won't consistently and categorically deny the absence of "higher beings", "A Creator" or whatever.

But until I have a good reason to assume that one DOES exist, I'm not gonna assume they do exist.

:)
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
So why don't you blame these people instead?
You could as well blame any belief to create murderers. Football or music fans for example. Should football and music be banned?
You get things twisted all the time.

Im being totally honest here: If i hear your way of arguing i want to fucking punch the screen because it irks me to read this. And it could be about any other topic really. Its about the way of responding to certain points by not getting the point in the first place or the next logical step after it.

How the hell do you draw a line from football to people killing someone? Is there a rule i overlooked that says "you gotta kill a fan of a different team to be a good supporter of your club"? Hell no! - On the other hand, dont tell me you cant see how you could very easily draw a line from certain religions ("holy scriptures") to people killing someone else?!?!

They are irrational from your point of view since you don't understand them. It's only normal that your main weapon is throwing names of those who claim to be religious and are idiots. You are an anthitheist.
Look at all great people who were religious.
They are irrational!

If you do something without a reason or with a huge lack of reasoning behind your actions, its called irrational behaviour. Lack of logic, whatever.

And please, count atheists who did great things and religious people who did the same doesnt help anybody.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
bEinstein did believe in a higher being.

Did Albert Einstein Believe in a Personal God?

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

Also one of his most famous quotes on that matter:

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

"It is the second part of the quote that reveals the reason Einstein rejected the existence of a personal God. Einstein compared the remarkable design and order of the cosmos and could not reconcile those characteristics with the evil and suffering he found in human existence. How could an all-powerful God allow the suffering that exists on earth?"

So he believed in a higher being. He did not believe in a personal God (like many of us here).
 

Bobby Sands

Well-Known Member
Einstein did not believe in a higher being, as he clearly stated:

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." And: "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."

What he did do was play around with the word God and used it tongue-in-cheek as a metaphor for the physical laws of the universe. So he would say things like, "God doesn't play dice with the Universe." But that wasn't an expression of personal belief, except to the religious who jump on anything they get that looks favorable to their side.

In two surveys done in 1916 and in 1996, it turns out that for both years about 40% of scientists say they believe in God. That's much lower than the general population, and if they included doctors in those surveys, that would explain the majority of that 40%, since most doctors are unscientifc.
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

On whether he considered himself religious: “Yes, you could call it that. Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this foce beyond anything we can comprehend is my religion.”

On whether he accepted the historical existence of Christ: “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”

On the nature of God: “That deeply emotional conviction of a presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.”

On whether science leads to religion: “Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of nature–a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort.

On how religion motivates scientific inquiry: “The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research.”

On whether science and religion are at odds: “The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

On how he regards atheists: “The fanatical atheists…are creatures who cannot he[a]r the music of the spheres. I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist. What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos.”
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
You get things twisted all the time.

Its about the way of responding to certain points by not getting the point in the first place or the next logical step after it.
Exactly.

Masta, you seemed to have missed the point of everything I wrote in my numbered reply, and answered something else. Mental negligence when your beliefs are threatened by reason?

You- "Obviously you don't understand some things since you probably were never religious. Various religions don't even have God whom you should pray to. I think that many atheists see any religious guy as a bible thumper."

Did you miss my saying, Your list (of what you believe in) will be different? The point of what I wrote there was not about any particular belief, but that any belief you have about anything will extend to other beliefs about the world. Not believing in a higher being extends to a whole worldview. So believing in a higher being is not an isolated belief, as you seemed to assume, since it’s just making a believer happy, what’s wrong with that.

And I understand religious belief very well.. I’ve studied the Bible, the Quran, comparative religion. I’ve been to Roman Catholic services, Methodist, Baptist, charismatic services. My best friend is religious and goes to church at least twice a week. I’ve gone with her many times. She’s a great person and I love her very much. I have put myself in the shoes of a believer and have even written religious explanations of things on here.

You- "Nobody knows if he can affect the world or not. People believe that he did at least a few times in the past but we don't know if or will it ever change anything in the future. Why should he if he already created a balanced universe that works fine."

Again, you’re answering a particular example I gave and missing my whole point. Believing in a higher being is saying something about the world, whatever the hell you believe about that higher being. YOU HAVE YOUR OWN LIST. It don’t matter what’s on or not on that list. They are beliefs about the world. Science is a belief about the world. Your religious beliefs will necessarily come into conflict with science's, and that's one problem with believing in a higher being that makes you happy.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
That does not say Einstein believed in a higher being, or that he was religious. It merely says that, as a "super"scientist, he also accepted the notion of "we don't know yet".

I love it how religious folk try to turn everything in your favour though. That's so funny.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
How the hell do you draw a line from football to people killing someone? Is there a rule i overlooked that says "you gotta kill a fan of a different team to be a good supporter of your club"? Hell no! - On the other hand, dont tell me you cant see how you could very easily draw a line from certain religions ("holy scriptures") to people killing someone else?!?!
So you see that you don't need a command to kill in the name of something if you're an idiot. But if someone who claims to be religious kills it's considered outrageous since religious people are expected to behave better. I think it's a good example.

That's perfectly logic and that's what pisses you off.

Is there a rule that says "go and kill people who believe in anything else than you" in the holy books?
 

Bobby Sands

Well-Known Member
Exactly Duke. Agnostic would be a better description as opposed to an atheist.

that was the point of my post. Not to show that he was religious but to show that he was at least Agnostic or had is own belief.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
That does not say Einstein believed in a higher being, or that he was religious. It merely says that, as a "super"scientist, he also accepted the notion of "we don't know yet".

I love it how religious folk try to turn everything in your favour though. That's so funny.
What he says pretty much reflects what I feel in this case. I'm also not entirely convinced that there's God but I wish there was and don't rule out its existence as opposed to most people here. Though I have my own reasons to believe in God.
I believe that what he said means he believed that there probably is some sort of higher being he fails to understand like most of us.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
Einstein also said, "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever." So am I, but I wouldn't use the word religious because religious people get the wrong idea, as they do with Einstein.

Einstein felt deep humility at the magnificence of the universe and that's what he was expessing.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
Not only do these religious people harbor ridiculous beliefs, they are often willing to kill and die for them.
This is just foolish and a completely exaggerated analysis of events following 9-11. You've been brainwashed into thinking that religious people often (key word often) are willing to kill and die for religious beliefs. It's taken out of context in two ways.

First, the MAJORITY of Muslims in the world DON'T kill because of their religion or what their religious leaders tell them the religion is saying. In your head, a word association game goes something like "death" "religion" "islam".

Second, people are willing to die to PRESERVE their religious beliefs. For example, a religious person would be willing to fight to death in the US for his/her right to believe in a higher power. There is nothing dangerous or detrimental to your happiness. I believe a person's willingness to die to preserve his/her beliefs (however foolish it may be to outsiders) demonstrates courage and dignity. This doesn't mean blowing yourself up. Poor islamic people are manipulated by their leaders into thinking that's what they're doing and you're taking advantage of that manipulation to further your argument about how religion is evil. Every belief can be manipulated into an evil deed.

As far as my own happiness or lack of happiness, I wasn't trying to get personal and talk about my happiness as an individual. That is an entirely separate issue. Although I am curious as to what you mean by your last sentence (off topic)?
Then, why did you say "that makes their happiness detrimental to mine"? That clearly seems as if you're speaking personally. What I meant by my last sentence is that I hope you're not blaming religion for your current state of being.
 

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