Religion = Evil [RIP Dr. George Tiller]

[Sebastian]

So you see that you don't need a command to kill in the name of something if you're an idiot.

How can someone kill somebody and blame it on football. Tell me. I want you to explain this shit to me. Where is the correlation between football and killing someone?

Is there a rule that says "go and kill people who believe in anything else than you" in the holy books?

There are fucking passages in holy scriptures where you can find shit like that, yes. I cant believe you are seriously asking this question.

 

[masta247]

Again, you’re answering a particular example I gave and missing my whole point. Believing in a higher being is saying something about the world, whatever the hell you believe about that higher being. YOU HAVE YOUR OWN LIST. It don’t matter what’s on or not on that list. They are beliefs about the world. Science is a belief about the world. Your religious beliefs will necessarily come into conflict with science's, and that's one problem with believing in a higher being that makes you happy.

But one thing doesn't rule out the other.
I'm not sure what exactly is God. If science somehow proves that the universe was not created by God then I will probably rethink my beliefs but will still believe in some sort of higher being. I will only have a different vision of him and neglect the fact that I thought he's the creator of our universe.
It's silly and not logic to believe in something that was already proven to be false.

Humans fail to understand many things that do exist for sure. How can we understand God then?

 

[masta247]

How can someone kill somebody and blame it on football. Tell me. I want you to explain this shit to me. Where is the correlation between football and killing someone?



There are fucking passages in holy scriptures where you can find shit like that, yes. I cant believe you are seriously asking this question.

When a football fan of team A murders a football fan of team b whose fault is it?
I'd call it a rivalry between fans of 2 clubs.
Nobody except their fanclub leaders and other moronic fans don't encourage them to attack or kill other people. That's why you can't blame football for this.

When a Muslim "blows himself up in the name of God" like you would call it it's also not his religion's fault. To me it's an analogic situation.
Sofi just explained it much better than I would.

 

[Bobby Sands]

How can someone kill somebody and blame it on football. Tell me. I want you to explain this shit to me. Where is the correlation between football and killing someone?



There are fucking passages in holy scriptures where you can find shit like that, yes. I cant believe you are seriously asking this question.

1992. All Ireland Gaelic football final. Donegal beat Dublin. Donegal fan celebrates his teams victory. Dublin thug takes offence and beats him to death. there is one example off the top of my head from a sport where there is rarely any violence amongst supporters. Now you are telling me that no one has ever been killed over football? What about the Leeds supporters who were stabbed to death by Galatasary fans in Instanbul about 10 years ago? What about that Nigerian guy who killed 4 people when he ploughed through a crowd of Barcelona supporters in his bus as they celebrated Barcelona's victory over his team Manchester United? What about Andres Escobar's murder?

theres a few examples.

 

[Glockmatic]

Those weren't done in the name of football

 

[masta247]

Those weren't done in the name of football

Then in the name of what?

In my country football fans are pretty rough. From time to time you are asked if you're a football fan and if you name a wrong team you'd get an asskick.
After almost every bigger derby match fans kick their asses just because they are fans of different teams. Do you think that they do that because of personal misunderstandings?

 

[Sebastian]

In all these cases the sport is not to blame because nowhere does it say (for example) in the official FIFA rules that anybody should be harmed for whatever reason. Nowhere. Not even close. Actually, if you want to get a bit technical, you will receive a punishment in form of a yellow or red card if you tackle someone and therefore risk his health.

In holy sciptures, there are huge passages about killing people (under what kind of circumstances it is allowed), treat them in other contemptous ways, et cetera...

See the difference? Nah you dont, eh? I hoped, for a second.

 

[masta247]

In all these cases the sport is not to blame because nowhere does it say (for example) in the official FIFA rules that anybody should be harmed for whatever reason. Nowhere. Not even close. Actually, if you want to get a bit technical, you will receive a punishment in form of a yellow or red card if you tackle someone and therefore risk his health.

In holy sciptures, there are huge passages about killing people (under what kind of circumstances it is allowed), treat them in other contemptous ways, et cetera...

See the difference? Nah you dont, eh? I hoped, for a second.

I'll be honest and say that I don't remember anything like that but I'm quite sure that it doesn't command people to kill.
One of the 10 commandments is "don't kill" -as simple as that. There are no circumstances mentioned meaning that if you break it you commit the heaviest sin.
Every good Christian, Muslim, Buddhist will tell you that killing is forbidden and it's the biggest sin in their religion. Hell Christians are told to not defend themselves even is someone attacks them.

 

[Glockmatic]

I'll be honest and say that I don't remember anything like that but I'm quite sure that it doesn't command people to kill.
One of the 10 commandments is "don't kill" -as simple as that. There are no circumstances mentioned.
Every good Christian, Muslim, Buddhist will tell you that killing is forbidden and it's the biggest sin in their religion. Hell Christians are told to not defend themselves even is someone attacks them.

The entire old testament is like the Third Reich, god kills a shitload of people and tells people to kill others.

 

[Casey]

It's all well and good to say "well those extremists are the minority and not all of us believe in that" but at some level, you have be held accountable for those people and you have to take responsibility.

After all, you belong to the same faction. You may not be extreme, but you understand the road that leads those people to extremism because at one point they were the same as you, but just progressed further down the same road that you are walking.

And I see "normal" Christians and "normal" Muslims denouncing the extremists all the time. But what are you doing to prevent it, or attack the extremists, or take steps to reduce the numbers and reasons for people going that far? Nothing. On some level you are placated by the fact that you're basically on the same team, and before anyone gets it twisted that DOESN'T mean you support their actions.........just have an understanding of it from a more internal perspective.

Standing idly by is no different from being an extremist yourself, because you have a better understanding of how it could be combated. Whether that be through your own religious texts or your cultural/social understandings.

This is why religion is a problem. The foundation of the problem is the 5-10% of extremists....but the flesh of the problem is the 85% that let them do what they do and make no effort to combat it. That leaves 5-10% of people that maybe do speak out against their own religion, and their own religion's extremists. But they face ostracism from their communities a lot of the time even though the majority of the community claim to not support the extremists.

I'd love to the figures of the amount of Muslims in the US and UK army that are fighting for the West in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm certain it would be a very negligible amount.

I see these kind of things in the Sikh community in the UK too. I don't come from a Sikh background, but a Hindu-Punjabi one (we're a minority in Punjab, where most of the population is Sikh, unlike the rest of India where most of the population is Hindu).

I see the young Sikhs here standing by and ignoring the fact that some of their temples are run by corrupt men and supported by illegal activities. There was a stabbing in Handsworth park (the park near where I live) a couple of years ago during a Mela (Indian festival/Event) within the Sikh community. The religious institutions get money and subsidies from the government, so the stabbing was because one faction of the community wanted to seize control from another faction.
And many young Sikhs would claim to not support extremism or terrorism, yet they idolize someone like Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, who was more or less a terrorist and accountable for the deaths of many people of rival religions and sects, and for inciting a battle that results in the deaths of thousands of his supporters, leading him to be considered somewhat of a "martyr" amongst young Sikhs...personally I find that despicable.

There are stories like this within every religion. People suffer endlessly over it, even people that just want to go about their business and not get mixed up in it.

I doubt that a lot of the people fighting against the West, in the Middle East, are extremists themselves. But it goes back to what I was saying before. They don't have the understanding to question it. They go with what they've been told. They're told the West is evil (not necessarily understanding why) and they go out and kill for their religion or the country, the same way that many of the American troops probably don't know why they're even at war. They're told the Middle Easterns are evil and they just accept it, don't ask why and don't give it a moments notice. They're not extremists, but they ARE the problem just as much as the extremists are. Because they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed and don't understand how to think for themselves when it comes to certain issues regarding religion and patriotism and doing what they're told.

I just wish people would think for themselves and use common sense and logic. IF YOU AREN'T PART OF THE SOLUTION (in the case of this dicussion, ATHEISM) YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I will never do what I'm told. I'll assess every situation for myself and determine MY course of action. And everyone is capable of it, with the right amount of willpower and determination not to be held down by the unspoken rules and conduct of their society or community. If more people thought for themselves......well, the world would be a better place.

So you can keep dreaming and believe that your own personal happy free religious wonderland with rabbits hopping around doesn't have any effect on anyone else. But when you really think about it.....it's pure selfishness and emotional weakness.

Why do you think people's beliefs suddenly grow stronger in times of suffering or need? Because they are emotionally weak and believe that they cannot make it on their own without a crutch. More often than not, if those people's situations become better and they become emotionally stronger, their dedication to their religion will fade away.....until another hardship comes their way. I say fuck that. I'm responsible. I'm not about to get on my knees and pray to some made up fictional character because I'm suffering in some way. Because it will hold me back. your god ain't gonna cure your terminal illness. Do you not see how ridiculous it is that some people even forego legitimate medical treatments because they foolishly believe that their religion will miraculously heal them? You know what happens? Those people DIE. When there is a fair chance to treatment could have saved their lives. Don't entrust your own EXISTENCE to something that ain't there.

 

[Glockmatic]

Then in the name of what?

In my country football fans are pretty rough. From time to time you are asked if you're a football fan and if you name a wrong team you'd get an asskick.
After almost every bigger derby match fans kick their asses just because they are fans of different teams. Do you think that they do that because of personal misunderstandings?

They're not doing it in the name of something. It's pride. If your team loses, the other teams fans taunt you by saying your team sucks and how they're better. Anger comes from that and there is violence. They're not driving their cars into people because Sky Sports told them that they're a bunch of football-heathens.

 

[Bobby Sands]

It's all well and good to say "well those extremists are the minority and not all of us believe in that" but at some level, you have be held accountable for those people and you have to take responsibility.

After all, you belong to the same faction. You may not be extreme, but you understand the road that leads those people to extremism because at one point they were the same as you, but just progressed further down the same road that you are walking.

And I see "normal" Christians and "normal" Muslims denouncing the extremists all the time. But what are you doing to prevent it, or attack the extremists, or take steps to reduce the numbers and reasons for people going that far? Nothing. On some level you are placated by the fact that you're basically on the same team, and before anyone gets it twisted that DOESN'T mean you support their actions.........just have an understanding of it from a more internal perspective.

Standing idly by is no different from being an extremist yourself, because you have a better understanding of how it could be combated. Whether that be through your own religious texts or your cultural/social understandings.

This is why religion is a problem. The foundation of the problem is the 5-10% of extremists....but the flesh of the problem is the 85% that let them do what they do and make no effort to combat it. That leaves 5-10% of people that maybe do speak out against their own religion, and their own religion's extremists. But they face ostracism from their communities a lot of the time even though the majority of the community claim to not support the extremists.

I'd love to the figures of the amount of Muslims in the US and UK army that are fighting for the West in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm certain it would be a very negligible amount.

I see these kind of things in the Sikh community in the UK too. I don't come from a Sikh background, but a Hindu-Punjabi one (we're a minority in Punjab, where most of the population is Sikh, unlike the rest of India where most of the population is Hindu).

I see the young Sikhs here standing by and ignoring the fact that some of their temples are run by corrupt men and supported by illegal activities. There was a stabbing in Handsworth park (the park near where I live) a couple of years ago during a Mela (Indian festival/Event) within the Sikh community. The religious institutions get money and subsidies from the government, so the stabbing was because one faction of the community wanted to seize control from another faction.
And many young Sikhs would claim to not support extremism or terrorism, yet they idolize someone like Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, who was more or less a terrorist and accountable for the deaths of many people of rival religions and sects, and for inciting a battle that results in the deaths of thousands of his supporters, leading him to be considered somewhat of a "martyr" amongst young Sikhs...personally I find that despicable.

There are stories like this within every religion. People suffer endlessly over it, even people that just want to go about their business and not get mixed up in it.

I doubt that a lot of the people fighting against the West, in the Middle East, are extremists themselves. But it goes back to what I was saying before. They don't have the understanding to question it. They go with what they've been told. They're told the West is evil (not necessarily understanding why) and they go out and kill for their religion or the country, the same way that many of the American troops probably don't know why they're even at war. They're told the Middle Easterns are evil and they just accept it, don't ask why and don't give it a moments notice. They're not extremists, but they ARE the problem just as much as the extremists are. Because they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed and don't understand how to think for themselves when it comes to certain issues regarding religion and patriotism and doing what they're told.

I just wish people would think for themselves and use common sense and logic. IF YOU AREN'T PART OF THE SOLUTION (in the case of this dicussion, ATHEISM) YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I will never do what I'm told. I'll assess every situation for myself and determine MY course of action. And everyone is capable of it, with the right amount of willpower and determination not to be held down by the unspoken rules and conduct of their society or community. If more people thought for themselves......well, the world would be a better place.

So you can keep dreaming and believe that your own personal happy free religious wonderland with rabbits hopping around doesn't have any effect on anyone else. But when you really think about it.....it's pure selfishness and emotional weakness.

Why do you think people's beliefs suddenly grow stronger in times of suffering or need? Because they are emotionally weak and believe that they cannot make it on their own without a crutch. More often than not, if those people's situations become better and they become emotionally stronger, their dedication to their religion will fade away.....until another hardship comes their way. I say fuck that. I'm responsible. I'm not about to get on my knees and pray to some made up fictional character because I'm suffering in some way. Because it will hold me back. your god ain't gonna cure your terminal illness. Do you not see how ridiculous it is that some people even forego legitimate medical treatments because they foolishly believe that their religion will miraculously heal them? You know what happens? Those people DIE. When there is a fair chance to treatment could have saved their lives. Don't entrust your own EXISTENCE to something that ain't there.

Please fuck off with this complete and utter shite.

your a fucking nutjob.

why dont you make an effort to stop the extremists yourself great one?


a religion nut attacked my uncle one day and brought up a load of shit about his brother who commit suicide. you have a fair idea of what he might have said. I laid him out with a left hook to the jaw. so i didnt sit idly by and agree with him. I did something about it as you said.

sorry for not stopping Al Qaeda though. Forgive me.

I actually agree with the last paragraph to some extent.

 

[Euphanasia]

This is just foolish and a completely exaggerated analysis of events following 9-11. You've been brainwashed into thinking that religious people often (key word often) are willing to kill and die for religious beliefs. It's taken out of context in two ways.

Conflicts in Palestine (jews vs muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians vs Catholic Croatians), Northern Ireland (Protestants vs Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims vs Hindus), Sudan (Muslims vs Christians).

The list goes on and on and on.

It seems that often is not even a strong enough word.

These people die for nothing. Religion has indeed made a graveyard of the globe.

 

[Casey]

Please fuck off with this complete and utter shite.

your a fucking nutjob.

why dont you make an effort to stop the extremists yourself great one?


a religion nut attacked my uncle one day and brought up a load of shit about his brother who commit suicide. you have a fair idea of what he might have said. I laid him out with a left hook to the jaw. so i didnt sit idly by and agree with him. I did something about it as you said.

sorry for not stopping Al Qaeda though. Forgive me.

I actually agree with the last paragraph to some extent.

I come at you with dozens of valid points and the best you can do to respond to them is "fuck off with your shite".

Way to make your cause look good, Bobby.

Are you a Muslim? No, you are not. I'm clearly not expecting YOU to take accountability for Al Quaeda, but you should be taking accountability for the problems of Catholicism (aren't you folks the ones whose religious officials enjoy molesting young boys? I've seen many news items about this).

And perhaps....just perhaps, you are. And if so, then surely you understand that you a very much a minority in that sense. Are you active in your religious community? If you see or become an aware of an injustice or a fucked up action from members of your own community, do you publically address it and address those that have no say on the matter and sit idly by? I could be wrong but I'm not so sure that you do.

I'm pro-active in my atheism. I have a reponsibility as someone that is intelligent, clear-minded and logical to make people realize the truth that, as Euphanasia said, the abolition of religion is vital to the progres, and ultimate, the survival of the human race.

I would have thought the fact that the person is who almost unquestionably the most intelligent poster on this forum (Jokerman) is personally on the Atheist side of the fence would be a simple pointer towards your understanding. But perhaps you don't value intelligence. Perhaps you don't value the observations and wisdom of people that have studied and observed this debate in far more detail than you ever have. Perhaps the wisdom of people like myself that have had the opportunity to travel and observe different cultures and the social aspects of many different races and societies means absolutely nothing to you. Like I said - it's easy to stick with what your parents told you and the surroundings they raised you in. It's difficult to question the things that you have believed in for your entire life. It is far easier for you to remain stubbonly ignorant despite reams and reams of evidence and epic levels of human understanding to the contrary. That's life I guess.

But for those of us that want to be all that we can be, those of us that know the only person responsible for their life is themself, those of us that want to see the human race progress to levels that make our current state of evolution seem neanderthalic.
- YOU, and RELIGION, are a PROBLEM.

I actually agree with the last paragraph to some extent.

Not to sound like an asshole (although I'm sure you already think I do), but of course you can agree. But reallly what I'm trying to explain to you is that those examples of terminal illness and people making the wrong decision because of religion, and ultimately dying because of that wrong decision, that behaviour isn't confined to that one field and set of examples. Millions of people make ill-concieved, wrong, and ultimately hurtful decision every day, solely because of religion.

You have made a step in the right decision, and although the ultimate and greatest path for religious human beings would be to renounce the concept of a god - even just renouncing the concept of organised religion and keeping one's spirituality to themselves would be progress. Like, OK, believe in your god or whatever, but don't let it influence your actions in a mixed society. Don't use your spirituality to make decisions that affect other people that might not see things the same way, especially if you hold a position of influence. Don't congregate with other people that believe the same thing. It isn't necessary. There are monks and such that are dedicated to their spirituality but almost never even see other people or make any contact with society as a whole. The belief of THOSE people doesn't hurt others.

 

[S O F I]

It's all well and good to say "well those extremists are the minority and not all of us believe in that" but at some level, you have be held accountable for those people and you have to take responsibility.

by your logic, I have to take responsibility and be accountable for the genocide in Srebrenica.

Stop and think how foolish that is.


Also, your argument is very similar to how people said that bystanders in Nazi Germany were just as responsible for the Holocaust as those who committed such atrocities.

I wonder if Sebastian would thank your post there..

Standing idly by is no different from being an extremist yourself, because you have a better understanding of how it could be combated.

This is simply not the case. If I was Muslim, I'd have no idea how to combat suicide bombings. Hell, even the all-mighty NATO has no idea how to combat suicide bombings. Even if I did, I'd have no resources to combat anything and even a mere attempt would probably lead to my death.

This is why religion is a problem. The foundation of the problem is the 5-10% of extremists....but the flesh of the problem is the 85% that let them do what they do and make no effort to combat it. That leaves 5-10% of people that maybe do speak out against their own religion, and their own religion's extremists. But they face ostracism from their communities a lot of the time even though the majority of the community claim to not support the extremists.

In this context you speak of, religion is a means of unification and solidarity. You can easily substitute ethnicity, nationality, culture and get the same results. Does that mean we should eliminate who we are?

Actually the world would probably be better, but people cherish their diversity at the same time.

I'd love to the figures of the amount of Muslims in the US and UK army that are fighting for the West in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm certain it would be a very negligible amount.

and it makes perfect sense. If I was Muslim and enlisted in the army before the invasion of Afghanistan, I'd go to jail before I'd fight for the US, simply because of the amount of civilian casualties at the hands of the american troops. I mean, look at the recent bombings in Pakistan. I would not participate in killing my own innocent people.

Would you help bomb India?

I doubt that a lot of the people fighting against the West, in the Middle East, are extremists themselves. But it goes back to what I was saying before. They don't have the understanding to question it. They go with what they've been told. They're told the West is evil (not necessarily understanding why) and they go out and kill for their religion or the country, the same way that many of the American troops probably don't know why they're even at war. They're told the Middle Easterns are evil and they just accept it, don't ask why and don't give it a moments notice. They're not extremists, but they ARE the problem just as much as the extremists are. Because they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed and don't understand how to think for themselves when it comes to certain issues regarding religion and patriotism and doing what they're told.

but religion is not the root cause of the problems.

and that's the key here. Any thorough root cause analysis for the examples of how religion is bad would probably show that religion is not the root cause.

 

[S O F I]

Conflicts in Palestine (jews vs muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians vs Catholic Croatians), Northern Ireland (Protestants vs Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims vs Hindus), Sudan (Muslims vs Christians).

The list goes on and on and on.

It seems that often is not even a strong enough word.

These people die for nothing. Religion has indeed made a graveyard of the globe.

lol.

None of the examples mentioned have religion as the root cause of conflict.

Territory and resources, on the other hand, are.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I come at you with dozens of valid points and the best you can do to respond to them is "fuck off with your shite".

Way to make your cause look good, Bobby.

Yes, most of your post is a load of shite.

Are you a Muslim? No, you are not. I'm clearly not expecting YOU to take accountability for Al Quaeda, but you should be taking accountability for the problems of Catholicism (aren't you folks the ones whose religious officials enjoy molesting young boys? I've seen many news items about this).

And perhaps....just perhaps, you are. And if so, then surely you understand that you a very much a minority in that sense. Are you active in your religious community? If you see or become an aware of an injustice or a fucked up action from members of your own community, do you publically address it and address those that have no say on the matter and sit idly by? I could be wrong but I'm not so sure that you do.

no. there has never been any cases of sexual abuse in my community that i am aware. What are you suggesting? That i know of some child abuse and have not done anything about it? Wow, i didn't think you thought that poorly of me. If i knew that a priest was raping kids, id rip his fuckin balls off.

I'm pro-active in my atheism. I have a reponsibility as someone that is intelligent, clear-minded and logical to make people realize the truth that, as Euphanasia said, the abolition of religion is vital to the progres, and ultimate, the survival of the human race.

You sound crazed. really you do.

I would have thought the fact that the person is who almost unquestionably the most intelligent poster on this forum (Jokerman) is personally on the Atheist side of the fence would be a simple pointer towards your understanding. But perhaps you don't value intelligence. Perhaps you don't value the observations and wisdom of people that have studied and observed this debate in far more detail than you ever have. Perhaps the wisdom of people like myself that have had the opportunity to travel and observe different cultures and the social aspects of many different races and societies means absolutely nothing to you. Like I said - it's easy to stick with what your parents told you and the surroundings they raised you in. It's difficult to question the things that you have believed in for your entire life. It is far easier for you to remain stubbonly ignorant despite reams and reams of evidence and epic levels of human understanding to the contrary. That's life I guess.

Jokerman is just another human being (or is he? lol). i have never met the guy in my life.

You don't think i have traveled to different countries and observed different cultures? You think i have never left Ireland? Maybe i don't get to travel as much as you but yes i have observed plenty of different cultures.

But for those of us that want to be all that we can be, those of us that know the only person responsible for their life is themself, those of us that want to see the human race progress to levels that make our current state of evolution seem neanderthalic.
- YOU, and RELIGION, are a PROBLEM.

Again you seem crazed. Almost like one of those religion nuts you so despise.


Not to sound like an asshole (although I'm sure you already think I do), but of course you can agree. But reallly what I'm trying to explain to you is that those examples of terminal illness and people making the wrong decision because of religion, and ultimately dying because of that wrong decision, that behaviour isn't confined to that one field and set of examples. Millions of people make ill-concieved, wrong, and ultimately hurtful decision every day, solely because of religion.

You have made a step in the right decision, and although the ultimate and greatest path for religious human beings would be to renounce the concept of a god - even just renouncing the concept of organised religion and keeping one's spirituality to themselves would be progress. Like, OK, believe in your god or whatever, but don't let it influence your actions in a mixed society. Don't use your spirituality to make decisions that affect other people that might not see things the same way, especially if you hold a position of influence. Don't congregate with other people that believe the same thing. It isn't necessary. There are monks and such that are dedicated to their spirituality but almost never even see other people or make any contact with society as a whole. The belief of THOSE people doesn't hurt others.

But i do most of these things anyway.

what,do you want me to move into a cave here in the west of ireland and cut myself off from the rest of the world?

are you on craic?

 

[Bobby Sands]

lol.

None of the examples mentioned have religion as the root cause of conflict.

Territory and resources, on the other hand, are.

I think he needs a history lesson if he believes that Catholics and Protestants in the north of ireland started fighting solely because of their religious differences

 

[Casey]

by your logic, I have to take responsibility and be accountable for the genocide in Srebrenica.

Are you part of a religion that caused that genocide?

Also, your argument is very similar to how people said that bystanders in Nazi Germany were just as responsible for the Holocaust as those who committed such atrocities.

And I agree with that assesment. Hitler brainwashed the people of Germany by preying on their weaknesses. Making them believe that Jews were responsible for the problems of the society and therefore making them believe that eradicating them wouldn't be a bad thing.

While many of those people were not Nazi's themselves, they did support the Nazi's whether it was directly or indirectly by not doing anything. They believed what they were told, the person telling these things based it off his own interpretations of his religion, and they didn't question it. While Hitler was a political leader and not a religious one, the same rules apply.

This is simply not the case. If I was Muslim, I'd have no idea how to combat suicide bombings. Hell, even the all-mighty NATO has no idea how to combat suicide bombings. Even if I did, I'd have no resources to combat anything and even a mere attempt would probably lead to my death.

I have a Muslim friend who pro-actively spreads change through spreading of knowledge, awareness, and an insider perspective, that if applied on a larger scale could easily bring down the support of the Taliban and would therefore combat suicide bombings. Clearly, I don't expect someone to act like Rambo and rip the bombs of someone's chest....but it starts with KNOWLEDGE, and the awareness he spreads prevents would-be suicide bombers in the first place by giving them a different perspective.

In this context you speak of, religion is a means of unification and solidarity. You can easily substitute ethnicity, nationality, culture and get the same results. Does that mean we should eliminate who we are?

Actually the world would probably be better, but people cherish their diversity at the same time.

Surely you aren't suggesting that religion doesn't bond people together on a stronger level than nationality. That simply isn't the case. Sikhs and Muslims, for example, aren't at odds because of where they live or where they come from. They fight over the land because they believe it belongs to their RELIGION. Why do you think the Sikhs have been fighting to have their own independant state called Khalistan? Because they envision it as a utopia for the Sikhi people.

and it makes perfect sense. If I was Muslim and enlisted in the army before the invasion of Afghanistan, I'd go to jail before I'd fight for the US, simply because of the amount of civilian casualties at the hands of the american troops. I mean, look at the recent bombings in Pakistan. I would not participate in killing my own innocent people.

Would you help bomb India?

That's a moot point because I wouldn't join the armed forces in a million years, and if forced to, I'd rebel because I don't agree with it.

If:

A) I was highly religious
and
B) There was an uprise of my religions extremists that was giving the entire of my religion a bad name
and
C) I agreed with the joining the armed forces in general

then hell fucking yeah I'd fight against those people that claimed to be representing the same thing I was but weren't. I'm talking on the level of serious extremists like Al Quaeda/the Taliban.

if you are Muslim are you feel that the extremists are detrimental to your religion (as MANY Western Muslims rightly do), the right thing to do would be to join forces with the other side that is attempting to quash the extremists, no? By not being a part of the solution you are part of the problem. There's no sitting on the fence in this scenario.

Civilian casualties are surely an understood inevitability in war, no? Don't assume that people don't care about civilian casualties just because they aren't ethnically native to that region. But it's war, that's what happens.

but religion is not the root cause of the problems.

and that's the key here. Any thorough root cause analysis for the examples of how religion is bad would probably show that religion is not the root cause.

Not every time, but a large chunk of the time. And even when they aren't the root cause, they are a large problem in trying to solve that root cause. They don't help the situation, they hinder it even further.

 

[Casey]

Yes, most of your post is a load of shite.

Your religion is a load of fucking shite to me, and all religions are. I think we're past this point now. I have many valid points in this debate but all you are able to say in your defence consists of the following:


"That's shite"
AND
"You're crazed".


You almost sound as if you are trying to convince yourself.....and not me.

no. there has never been any cases of sexual abuse in my community that i am aware. What are you suggesting? That i know of some child abuse and have not done anything about it? Wow, i didn't think you thought that poorly of me. If i knew that a priest was raping kids, id rip his fuckin balls off.

Then why is the news full of stories like this?

Irish priests beat, raped children in decades of abuse: Report | WORLD News

Priests beat and raped children during decades of abuse in Catholic-run institutions in Ireland, an official report said, but it stopped short of naming the perpetrators.

Orphanages and industrial schools in 20th century Ireland were places of fear, neglect and endemic sexual abuse, the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse said in a harrowing five-volume report that took nine years to compile.

"When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the response of the religious authorities was to transfer the offender to another location where, in many instances, he was free to abuse again," the report said.

Sexual abuse was endemic in boys' institutions and girls were preyed on by sexual predators who were able to operate unhindered.

The Commission interviewed 1,090 men and women who were housed in 216 institutions including children's homes, hospitals and schools. They told of scavenging for food from waste bins and animal feed, of floggings, scaldings and being held under water. There were underwear inspections and in one case, a boy was forced to lick excrement from a priest's shoe.

Tom Sweeney, who spent five years at industrial schools including two years at the notorious Artane Industrial School, said it still haunted its former residents.

"Unfortunately there are a lot of people that have committed suicide, there are a lot of people that have ended up in hospitals and they have been forgotten about," he said.

This kind of thing is widespread, not just, as in this example, in YOUR religion, but in ALL religions.

How is it that these religious authority figures have been able to get away with this behaviour for so long? Because they use their closed religious communities to spread brainwashing. They claim to their worshippers that they are sinners and are going to hell (fucking load of shite, there is no hell) and scare them into believing every word they say. They rule via scare tactics and it's despicable, and everybody does it, all the way from your local preacher who will endlessly recite bullshit bible dogma to "scare" you into having morals while they are corrupt fuckers themselves, to the pope who does the same thing on a larger level.

I've met a few Catholic priests in my time and one of them in particular was probably the most evil, sordid person you could ever meet.

what,do you want me to move into a cave here in the west of ireland and cut myself off from the rest of the world?

No. If all the churches were destroyed, people didn't congregate or discuss their joined religion, people were not able to get into positions of religious power over other people (isn't your god supposed to love everyone equally anyway??), and people who did believe just kept it to their damn selves and didn't let it have any influence over their decisions in a social or working context, that would be progress.

Unfortunately, it's not like that. You've got morons like George W Bush, who controlled an entire nation for 8 years, believing he was "God's chosen servant" or some fucking horseshit like that, and that gave him the power to do what he wanted to do. Hitler was the same way. Many kings and political leaders have been.

And even now the people in states like California who are denying other people human rights (like the gay marriage issue) are doing it BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, when their beliefs shouldnt have a single bit of influence over the decisions they make as social representatives.