The (test) heated debates thread.

tHuG $TyLe

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#41
Sure, like there is no other subject where some members have a good knowledge about. Wrong.



For the same reason you debate your opinions in the football thread. There you go.



I cant give you a specific example right now but over the years ive heard a lot of new arguments concerning various topics which i would not have heard (or maybe later somewhere else) without talking about it on here. So yes, some of my opinions have changed a bit. Or at least i gained knowledge.
I never said other members don't have a good knowledge about other subjects. Of course they do, the intelligence of this forum is a lot higher than others I visit. What a pathetic attempt at a point you just made.

I do form an opinion about football, so doesn't this go against your original point of me not voicing my opinion? Eh? so your orginal point is invalid. And like I said I use this because of the football posters, I use BX for the Hip Hop and Wrestling posters, I use the PESFAN for the games posters. I said I don't give a fuck about someones relgious views or their views on meat. In my lifetime I have been a vegertarian for thirteen years and and a meat eater for 10 years. I followed religion for the same period and also the same period without religion. So I am confident of my own views and beliefs as I have gone down both routes. I don't feel I need to debate them, I will eat meat as I enjoy the taste, I won't follow religion as I don't believe it benefits me. If these benefit someone else, cool. Good for them. Do you.

Yes, I have learnt things from here, I never denied that or even mentioned it, I do observe the threads when these debates are going on so I am fully aware of what is going on.
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
#42
the other being the football section as this is the only place where I feel the members have a good knowledge about that subject
That sounded to me like you were saying football is the only subject some sh members have a good knowledge about.

I do form an opinion about football, so doesn't this go against your original point of me not voicing my opinion? Eh? so your orginal point is invalid.
I should have been more specific with my comment. I was talking about something a little bit more complex than the question "was the ball over the line or not?".

I don't feel I need to debate them,
But somehow you feel the need to follow them.

My opinion won't change, your opinion won't change. We will just be arguing our points and getting heated because someone doesn't voice the same opinion.
There you said debating about different point of views on these matters is useless because it will change nothing. I told you it does.
 

Bobby Sands

Well-Known Member
#43
That sounded to me like you were saying football is the only subject some sh members have a good knowledge about.



I should have been more specific with my comment. I was talking about something a little bit more complex than the question "was the ball over the line or not?".



But somehow you feel the need to follow them.



There you said debating about different point of views on these matters is useless because it will change nothing. I told you it does.
really? like who?


.
 

tHuG $TyLe

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#44
That sounded to me like you were saying football is the only subject some sh members have a good knowledge about.

I should have been more specific with my comment. I was talking about something a little bit more complex than the question "was the ball over the line or not?".

But somehow you feel the need to follow them.

There you said debating about different point of views on these matters is useless because it will change nothing. I told you it does.
Well you were wrong (Something I've said you do a lot)

Like I said, I don't feel I need to debate religious or meat debates. I cannot say this enough to you. Yes I follow them, am I not allowed to? I'm sure you observe many things without getting involved in it. The Religious/food debates are the most discussed topics, why would someone not atleast take a glimpse at them? so once again your point is quite pathetic. Seriously, what are you even trying to debate with me now? That I don't give my opinion on complex threads? I've explained why, I said it doesn't interest me to discuss the topic but observing the topic moreso looking at the habits people use when they argue is also something I look at.

It can change your views, do you really think going on about a God doesn't exist will make someone like Hizzle and Bobby turn around say.."You know what..YOURE RIGHT, FUCK GOD" come on man, get a grip. Of course you can learn new things when debating, it may change your belief, cool. But I am fully happy with my beliefs at this point in my life, will they change one day, probably.

And "whether the ball is over the line" is a pretty cheap effort are trying to diminish an opinion. This would be totally different if I was thanking your posts. You're just butthurt that the thank you circle jerk wasn't in your favour.

Ba-ZING!
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
#49
It can change your views, do you really think going on about a God doesn't exist will make someone like Hizzle and Bobby turn around say.."You know what..YOURE RIGHT, FUCK GOD" come on man, get a grip. Of course you can learn new things when debating, it may change your belief, cool. But I am fully happy with my beliefs at this point in my life, will they change one day, probably.
....wait a minute, first you say its ridiculous to belief debating about it will infact change someones opinion and then you go on by saying that it is possible?

who me?

im wondering which people know alot about football but little about anything else?
Youve got to ask Thuggy, i didnt say that, i quoted him.
 

tHuG $TyLe

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#50
....wait a minute, first you say its ridiculous to belief debating about it will infact change someones opinion and then you go on by saying that it is possible?



Youve got to ask Thuggy, i didnt say that, i quoted him.
....Wait a minute. Look at the debates, have the debates changed anyones position on their belief whether God exists or not, I mean the ones who are totally passionate about this subject i.e Casey/Bobby/ (the rest whose name excape me right now) will their beliefs change, I highly doubt it.

What I was saying (as you're really nitpicking points to back yourself up now) is debates can change opinions of people who are probably unsure of their belief and have doubts. I believe a lot of people were shocked at the amount of crap that goes into milk right? So maybe their opinion changed. But members who are totally passionate about the subject, their opinions will rarely if ever change. The debates go around in circles, but next time I will thank you so you can feel good about yourself :thumb:

Oh and Bobby, Sebby misunderstood me, that was nowhere near what I was implying. Like I said thos forum has the most intelligent members (maybe PESFAN is up there), especially after seeing some posts on BX who make your brain hurt.
 

Bobby Sands

Well-Known Member
#51
....wait a minute, first you say its ridiculous to belief debating about it will infact change someones opinion and then you go on by saying that it is possible?



Youve got to ask Thuggy, i didnt say that, i quoted him.
yea but he didnt say that. im sure he meant it is better to discuss football with the members here rather than on other forums. which i agree with.
 

Casey

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#52
I just want to state that if I thought my discussing/debating of ANY subject wouldn't change anyone's opinion, I wouldn't bother.

Now - three of the subjects that have gathered a lot of debate on this forum are:

Atheism VS Religion
Vegetarianism/Veganism VS Meat/Dairy Eating
Android VS iPhone

I'm not going to mention any names here (the people know who they are)

but in every one of those topics, I've received messages from multiple StreetHop members who initially were on the opposing side to me, essentially saying "You know what, I really thought about the points you made and you're right. Thanks for making me aware".

There's people on this forum that considered getting iPhones and now went with Android after learning about it. There's people on this forum that ate meat their entire lives and are now vegetarian. There's people on this forum that were religious, and are now, at the very least, agnostic, if not atheist.

So yeah, I can be an asshole sometimes. But beneath my asshole-ism, my occasional vitriol and some offensive remarks here or there, there's ALWAYS valid points to the stuff I talk about. And it gets results. You can never accuse me of not knowing what the fuck I'm talking about.

Some people don't like my methods. But I don't like brainwashing and manipulation. (which strangely enough, the meat/dairy industry, religion, and Apple all have in common). If the only way for me to get you to understand a point is by picking up a hammer and smashing that point deep into your brain, fine. Be offended, be mad, curse me out, whatever. You're still thinking about, and eventually you will understand the logic and the rationale.
 

Synful*Luv

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#53
This is slightly off topic.. but I don't remember any of the religious members (Minus blumpkin.. is that his name? Dilla/tennis_dog) ever really saying anything in defense of religion. I can't remember seeing a post that was well written and thought out about the benefits of a specific religion or a specific god (outside of blumpkin's postings)

I'm back on the forums now, but I hadn't been around for awhile so maybe I missed something.

I'm very interested in (not arguing) but reading the benefits of following a religion/believing in and worshipping a god from the viewpoint of someone who is a practicing member of a religion and who prays/worships regularly.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#54
^ yeah you missed a lot - there were a few "religion" topics where some religious people actually posted but got fed up and stopped posting. None of them was arguing about it though, they were just giving reasons why they believe and what it gives them and were shat on.

@Casey, while it's possible to convert a milk drinker or even an Iphone fan I don't think it's possible to convert a trully religious person. You could try discussing with someone who's "in between" - a person who is not really religious. You can make them think that he's doing the good things etc. but you can't convert people who really do have faith in God or whatever they believe. The idea of God is as real and awesome to them as it sucks and is illogical for you and converting them would be as hard as making you a believer if not harder.
Religion is a specific thing and I don't think it's possible to convince any side in a debate about it.

Most atheists don't understand that being religious is not just an opinion you can change like any other. It's a feeling, a bigger part of someone's life that makes these people feel better and arguing about it makes them feel like you're trying to take it away from them.
 

Casey

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#55
@Casey, while it's possible to convert a milk drinker or even an Iphone fan I don't think it's possible to convert a trully religious person. You could try discussing with someone who's "in between" - a person who is not really religious. You can make them think that he's doing the good things etc. but you can't convert people who really do have faith in God or whatever they believe. The idea of God is as real and awesome to them as it sucks and is illogical for you and converting them would be as hard as making you a believer if not harder.
Religion is a specific thing and I don't think it's possible to convince any side in a debate about it.

Most atheists don't understand that being religious is not just an opinion you can change like any other. It's a feeling, a bigger part of someone's life that makes these people feel better and arguing about it makes them feel like you're trying to take it away from them.
I understand what you are saying, and while I find it valid in some ways, overall I disagree simply due to the fact that there are a significant number of atheists who used to be believers. And some of them were quite hardcore. There's plenty of examples of these people who did used to believe in a god, quite heavily, and now they don't.

I think it's a question of time. You know, a really religious person might one day hear a valid point for atheism, dismiss it, but still remember it. Then, later they might hear another valid point that brings up the memory of the first point. This can continue, up until the point that they become agnostic, and later atheist.

Being religious/having faith is ABSOLUTELY having an opinion. And while that opinion maybe harder to change (especially with irrational people, and that's not specifically directed at you of course), it can, and has been done. The difficulty lies with how deeply interwoven it is with existence. It's like a very complicated tangle of knots. But they can still be untangled.

It wouldn't be harder for me to convert to being a believer. I just need some tangible, solid proof. But not only have I never seen any, I've never seen any indication that it's even the remotest of possibilities.
 

dilla

Trumpfan17 aka Coonie aka Dilla aka Tennis Dog
#57
Another forum I visit has something called "Elevated Minds" where they discuss topics like this. It's kinda like Words of Wisdom, though....I think.
 

Preach

Well-Known Member
#60
Seriously, what are you even trying to debate with me now? That I don't give my opinion on complex threads?
Well, I get what he's saying. I don't have a problem with it, but I have noticed how you very rarely share deep personal thoughts and ideas. They're personal to you, I get that. In the same way "a person like you" fails to understand why "someone like Sebastian" value those opinions/thoughts that you don't like sharing, someone like Sebastian would fail to understand why you won't share those thoughts. Think about it Thuggie. You, like me and everyone else speak from the capacity of your experiences. You see the world through eyes that were shaped by events in your life. I'll agree arguing about you not posting longer posts is retarded, but by the same logic, so is arguing that Sebastian shouldn't expect it from you.

Obviously, a guy like me wouldn't turn down a longer Thuggie post ;p

I've explained why, I said it doesn't interest me to discuss the topic
This is another thing I wanna add my two cents to. Okay, just bear with me here. So, you lived a life of 23 years you said? So in those 23 years you've seen and experienced a lot. You were first a religious person, then you gave it up (or you converted, but I choose not to believe that, and if that's the case, assume for the rest of the paragraph that it was the first way around). From your time as a religious person you would have certain thoughts. Misconceptions about the world, the universe. Partially from religious propaganda, partially because you were younger then. Then you became an atheist, and now you can look back on your time as being religious person through renewed eyes. This gives you a certain perspective. It would be unnatural for you to think, let's say for example that the earth is flat. That idea doesn't fit into your given perspective. So far we agree, yes?

When I, or Sebastian, say something like... "I wish you'd post more", that desire comes from a certain perspective as well. I'm not gonna give a life story, but I definitely have a life story. Without me having said anything about it, there is no reason for you to think that I haven't lead an at least as "difficult" life as you, or that I haven't gained at least the same amount of insight into self and others. It would be ludicrous of you to believe that anyone on here has an IQ way above yours even though they come off as a blithering moron to you. The reasons we disagree aren't because some people are right and some people are wrong, it's because we all have different opinions. Some people are just more narrow minded in the way they read and take part of larger discussions. It's difficult to keep your tongue straight when talking about things that to you as a person would be hypothetical, but just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong. But you know that. Which brings me to:

Thank you. Last time I visited here the Pakistan thread was at 8 pages (albeit I stopped going once it turned to religion bashing), I come here now and its at 21 pages. Wtf people? How can the same ten to fifteen people have the EXACT same discussion every three weeks, for the last two years?

I get it, religion is the most ass backwards asinine idea in the history of human kind, but arguing about it day in and day out on an internet forum and being serious about it makes you look like just as much of a moron.
do you really think going on about a God doesn't exist will make someone like Hizzle and Bobby turn around say.."You know what..YOURE RIGHT, FUCK GOD"
Hmm. Let me try to come up with a scenario that could very well be true. Let's say I was an altar boy when I was young. Let's pretend I was brought up in a Christian home with a single mother because my dad died in a work accident, or ran out on us when I was a baby. Let's assume that mother never quite knew how to deal with father's death and so turned to religion out of desperation. She loves it and would never let it go. Let's say my local minister touches me and I hated Christianity for my entire youth. Let's say I feel like my mother would be a happier woman if she moved on, instead of turning into a religious nut. And the one thing I want most in the world is to open her eyes, but it's difficult, so I come here to train my arguments so I know what to tell her.

Or let's say I have a condition, it's like ticks, and I just have to argue anything I disagree with if I happen to read it.

Is either two the case for my life story or not? Maybe. Can you know whether it would be when you read someone's post on here and deem that arguing similar topics over time isn't beneficial to the person in some way you just don't understand? Rhetorical, but for the record, no, you can't. With that information in mind I find it funny how people are so brash in voicing their otherwise poorly thought-out opinions that so transparently stem from nothing but their own experiences. People will say in a discussion how they are presenting objective arguments but all the arguments they pull out are formed from a subjective point of view - in particular, yours. It might be silly to argue religion with religious nuts over and over again, but just because you don't understand my motivation, what I hope to get out of it, or what it does for me, that doesn't mean there probably isn't some good reason deep down. Why not ask someone why they do something instead of telling them how fucking stupid it is?

But let's face it. People's motivations in discussions even change from day to day. Some days I feel cocky, other days I feel sentimental, others maybe funny or witty or I have a clever idea. Some days I just wanna make someone else feel bad about their bullshit because it happens to me, it happens to all of us, every now and again. So we're all bitter at each other for being idiots I guess. Some times I make a shitty post cause it was a bad day for me, some times others do. Everyone has a bad habit that someone else would find annoyingly retarded, and everyone also get annoyed by stupid little things because the emotion of anger is recreational. It means you didn't experience anything "real" that invoked the emotion your body is designed to have, so by habitual pattern your brain would find the biggest evil it could find in that moment. Some times that'll be "Thuggie you suck for not sharing your opinions" and some times it'll be "Get the fuck out of here Jesus lovers". But let's not pretend we haven't all had low points in our life lol, and try to capitalize too much on other people's weaknesses.

It's like when Young Buck acts all hard on his tracks, then he cries to 50 over the phone and goes on a mountain trip to talk about his feelings to a camera, then he's back acting all hard in his music. The shit gets me pumped but it's also fucking transparent.
 

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