Religion = Evil [RIP Dr. George Tiller]
- Thread starter Casey
- Start date
Right. People who are deluded do not know they are deluded. And the thing is, it's not your fault. Religion is an absolute ingenious invention designed to take advantage of human fear of death and it's also coupled with this vision of a tantalizing "eternal paradise" that awaits those who lead benevolent, fulfilling lives.
The problem lies in what each religion considers a fulfilling life.
You are probably a victim of childhood indoctrination. I myself was and it took me years and years to get out of it.
The problem lies in what each religion considers a fulfilling life.
You are probably a victim of childhood indoctrination. I myself was and it took me years and years to get out of it.
are you suggesting im brainwashed or something?
im not deluded either. Yes i believe in god and am religious to a certain degree but i form my own opinions based on my experiences. I dont abide by every single thing written in the bible or agree with everything the catholic church preaches. i form my own opinion. no one tells me what to do. full stop. Do you think that because the Catholic church preaches that divorce is a sin that for example, that i agree with it?
Even if i wasn't a Roman Catholic, i would still believe in the idea of a god.
im not deluded either. Yes i believe in god and am religious to a certain degree but i form my own opinions based on my experiences. I dont abide by every single thing written in the bible or agree with everything the catholic church preaches. i form my own opinion. no one tells me what to do. full stop. Do you think that because the Catholic church preaches that divorce is a sin that for example, that i agree with it?
Even if i wasn't a Roman Catholic, i would still believe in the idea of a god.
Quoted for truth.
Sorry to hear of your childhood indoctrination man. I can relate a little bit. I never believed any of that shit but it was forced on me from time to time and I can understand how many of the people who are subject to that aren't intelligent enough to question it. They don't know any different. They haven't been raised with that level of understanding.
And yes Bobby, we're absolutely suggesting you are brainwashed. You'll deny it up and down, because you simply don't know any better and you lived so long the way that you are that you can't even begin to question it.
I know because of where you said you haven't been convinced by anything said in here. Well Bobby, the truth is that myself, Euphanasia, Jokerman, Jeremy etc have presented you with rock solid logic here. To deny logic is just, well, stupid. And I hate to keep calling you that and offending you, but I can't sugarcoat it, it is what it is. Doesn't mean you aren't a nice guy, but your refusal to accept truth when it is presented right in front of your face, doesn't make a lick of sense. But like I said, you're brainwashed and don't know any better.
Here's something to chew on:
Imagine, from the day you were born, you lived in a closed community, where your parents and everybody around you told you that left was right, and right was left. That's what you knew (or accepted to be correct) and you had lived your entire life with that understanding.
Now let's say at 20 years old you finally leave that closed community and out into the real world. Someone tells you, no, you've got it wrong. This *holds out left hand* is LEFT, and this *holds out right hand* is RIGHT.
You simply wouldn't be able to understand. There'd be facts right there in front of you, but no matter how much someone could tell you, you simply would not have the ability to deal with it. After all, you've spent your entire existence so far believing this one thing. You would not be able to let it go. Even if you secretly knew that you were wrong, you wouldn't be able to re-program your entire brain to deak with what you've learned. It's easy to be stubborn, isn't it? It's the easy route. You accept things the way they were told and taught to you, even if they are wrong.
That's exactly what's going on here. That's why the parents have such a reponsibility during the childs formative years, because what they learn then may very well be the basis of their entire life. For most people it is. Like I said, they aren't mentally able to question things. They just know what they've been told and continue to operate on that understanding for the rest of their lives.
It's completely irre-fucking-sponsible to raise your child in a religious environment and I despise parents that do so. I guarantee if everyone raised their children in a neutral enviornment, and if all those children that grew up studied all religions AS AN ADULT capable of making their own choices and reaching their own conclusions, they'd all be atheists. You simply cannot reasonably argue with logic and evidence. To do so makes no sense whatsoever.
Sorry to hear of your childhood indoctrination man. I can relate a little bit. I never believed any of that shit but it was forced on me from time to time and I can understand how many of the people who are subject to that aren't intelligent enough to question it. They don't know any different. They haven't been raised with that level of understanding.
And yes Bobby, we're absolutely suggesting you are brainwashed. You'll deny it up and down, because you simply don't know any better and you lived so long the way that you are that you can't even begin to question it.
I know because of where you said you haven't been convinced by anything said in here. Well Bobby, the truth is that myself, Euphanasia, Jokerman, Jeremy etc have presented you with rock solid logic here. To deny logic is just, well, stupid. And I hate to keep calling you that and offending you, but I can't sugarcoat it, it is what it is. Doesn't mean you aren't a nice guy, but your refusal to accept truth when it is presented right in front of your face, doesn't make a lick of sense. But like I said, you're brainwashed and don't know any better.
Here's something to chew on:
Imagine, from the day you were born, you lived in a closed community, where your parents and everybody around you told you that left was right, and right was left. That's what you knew (or accepted to be correct) and you had lived your entire life with that understanding.
Now let's say at 20 years old you finally leave that closed community and out into the real world. Someone tells you, no, you've got it wrong. This *holds out left hand* is LEFT, and this *holds out right hand* is RIGHT.
You simply wouldn't be able to understand. There'd be facts right there in front of you, but no matter how much someone could tell you, you simply would not have the ability to deal with it. After all, you've spent your entire existence so far believing this one thing. You would not be able to let it go. Even if you secretly knew that you were wrong, you wouldn't be able to re-program your entire brain to deak with what you've learned. It's easy to be stubborn, isn't it? It's the easy route. You accept things the way they were told and taught to you, even if they are wrong.
That's exactly what's going on here. That's why the parents have such a reponsibility during the childs formative years, because what they learn then may very well be the basis of their entire life. For most people it is. Like I said, they aren't mentally able to question things. They just know what they've been told and continue to operate on that understanding for the rest of their lives.
It's completely irre-fucking-sponsible to raise your child in a religious environment and I despise parents that do so. I guarantee if everyone raised their children in a neutral enviornment, and if all those children that grew up studied all religions AS AN ADULT capable of making their own choices and reaching their own conclusions, they'd all be atheists. You simply cannot reasonably argue with logic and evidence. To do so makes no sense whatsoever.
Well, seeing that you, and other religious people, didn't come to hold your religious beliefs through rational and convincing arguments, why would your belief structure be vulnerable to them now?
People don't have good reasons for their religious beliefs, so why would good reasons against them affect them? In most domains of culture we just absorb other people's notions. It doesn't require much effort to have religious beliefs. It takes greater effort to challenge and rethink established notions than just to accept them. Which is why skeptics tend to see belief as a form of mental negligence.
Also, many religious claims are beyond verification, which makes them irrefutable. Most incorrect or incoherent claims are easily refuted by experience or logic but religious concepts are different. They invariably describe processes and agents whose existence could never be verified or proven not to exist. Through some form of twisted logic, religious ppl take this as a good argument in their favor. Since they can't be proven false, they think it shows their beliefs have a strong possiblity of being true, rather than seeing it as proof of the irrationality of their beliefs, as reasonable people do.
People don't have good reasons for their religious beliefs, so why would good reasons against them affect them? In most domains of culture we just absorb other people's notions. It doesn't require much effort to have religious beliefs. It takes greater effort to challenge and rethink established notions than just to accept them. Which is why skeptics tend to see belief as a form of mental negligence.
Also, many religious claims are beyond verification, which makes them irrefutable. Most incorrect or incoherent claims are easily refuted by experience or logic but religious concepts are different. They invariably describe processes and agents whose existence could never be verified or proven not to exist. Through some form of twisted logic, religious ppl take this as a good argument in their favor. Since they can't be proven false, they think it shows their beliefs have a strong possiblity of being true, rather than seeing it as proof of the irrationality of their beliefs, as reasonable people do.
The problem with religious people on this board is that they always take the wrong turn in this debate.
As a religious person in a debate about religion, your argument should never consist of trying to get the other side to prove that God doesn't exist. Your argument should be what religion does to you as a person and why it's beneficial. As a religious person, you shouldn't be bitter about an atheist's denial of God. If you truly believe in religion and believe in God and find happiness in that, then kudos to you.
You guys (bobby sands and Snowman) throw candy at these atheists who're always prepared for what you're going to say. Atheists make everything bad about religion stand out in the debates and you guys don't make anything good stand out about religion. I can't fight the fight for you because I'm kinda on the other side with the atheists lol but not nearly on the same tip as Casey and Euphanasia who get hard from talking shit about religion.
Also, I haven't studied the Koran so I don't know, but what I got from the Muslims on this board is that all the English translation from the Koran is misinterpreted and that the Koran is hard to interpret even for Muslim people. The Muslims never lost debates to the atheists on this board. The atheists would go and find quotes where the Koran talks about killing and the muslims would say it's taken out of context and the argument usually ended there.
It's sad that Masta took a loss with the Koran when Euphanasia quoted some stuff because a knowledgeable Muslim could have debated him on that.
ahh well.
As a religious person in a debate about religion, your argument should never consist of trying to get the other side to prove that God doesn't exist. Your argument should be what religion does to you as a person and why it's beneficial. As a religious person, you shouldn't be bitter about an atheist's denial of God. If you truly believe in religion and believe in God and find happiness in that, then kudos to you.
You guys (bobby sands and Snowman) throw candy at these atheists who're always prepared for what you're going to say. Atheists make everything bad about religion stand out in the debates and you guys don't make anything good stand out about religion. I can't fight the fight for you because I'm kinda on the other side with the atheists lol but not nearly on the same tip as Casey and Euphanasia who get hard from talking shit about religion.
Also, I haven't studied the Koran so I don't know, but what I got from the Muslims on this board is that all the English translation from the Koran is misinterpreted and that the Koran is hard to interpret even for Muslim people. The Muslims never lost debates to the atheists on this board. The atheists would go and find quotes where the Koran talks about killing and the muslims would say it's taken out of context and the argument usually ended there.
It's sad that Masta took a loss with the Koran when Euphanasia quoted some stuff because a knowledgeable Muslim could have debated him on that.
ahh well.
^ Not only that, but even if the translation and interpretation is 100% spot on, they still originate from a unverifiable source and the specific outtakes could still be about angels and demons and Creationism and whatnot.
Although sometimes interesting, I find that debating what those "holy books" say sort of defeats the point I'm trying to argue in the first place.
Although sometimes interesting, I find that debating what those "holy books" say sort of defeats the point I'm trying to argue in the first place.
Christ 
D), I just got home, and it's like 6 pages after...
I kinda just skimmed through it all, I'll look at specifics later. If you think religion is the real reason some of the largest death-tolls known to man. I think it's time for some of yous to pick up a book and learn a bit more about international relations, read up on history and thensome, cause believe you me, there's a lot more to these psychos than just religion and the era people we're living in prior WW2 for example, some of you would be bought as much as them. Shit, then I can say retarded shit like Institutionalized Atheism in the form of Communism has killed millions over the last 100 years, but it's much more complicated than that. Either way, that's beside the issue.
Now, I was raised in a Catholic household, but it was never forced upon me. My parents never force-fed me any of it, I was generally free to choose as a please. So, why is it beneficial to me? Simple, how about it makes me comfortable to believe in God. It makes me happy. At one point in my life, I didn't believe in fuck all, and I wasn't crucified (no pun intended) for it. Eventually, I started believing in it once again (due to personal reasons in which I don't feel like sharing), and I am much happier, I feel less pissed off with the world and more.
So, here's my question to you all, who are you (and by you I means those who judge, mock and ridicule) to deny someone happiness, or living comfortably and has no intentions of committing vicious crimes?
If you certainly feel you are all better, like I said, you're the same as those religious nuts, only difference is, you're not Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, or even fucking Raelians, you're Athiests, same shit, diferent packaging. If you guys can't look back at your posts and see what I just wrote and notice nothing wrong, then you guys are delusional, and just have a hard time putting your pride aside.
I wonder how some of you can even look at your doctors. These men of science and logic are some of the most religious individuals ever. All the stats and surveys have proven it, more than 70% in some occasions believe in a God. Judaism being generally #1 religion followed by these MDs. There's no real point in throwing out these stats and studies to be honest, I'm just showing as much as you guys can throw studies, I can throw as much back. It's a never ending circle.
Oh also, when it comes to sacred text interpretation, there are lots of methods, cause I recall reading that somewhere in this thread about it all.
Moral method: People trying to learn lessons from the bible for example, and use it in the moral structure of their lives.
Mystical Method: Trying to use the text and apply it to a deeper understanding of God or a spiritual being
Allegorical Method: Don't take the book, face-value, but as an allegory of something else
Literal Method: Taking the book, face-value.
Historical Critical Method (which is what I generally stick to, it is my field after all lol): Looks at the sacred text in it's historical context, intended audience of the author(s) and the desired effect of the author(s).
By the way, props to Sofi and Jokerman for actually being able to discuss this in a civilized manner.
PS: Casey, I'm gonna wait for the HTC Lancaster.
Thanks for the info in my Palm Pre thread
Edit: I hope you're all happy, I was about to go to bed, but all that typing woke me up. Eat shit mother fuckers.
D), I just got home, and it's like 6 pages after...I kinda just skimmed through it all, I'll look at specifics later. If you think religion is the real reason some of the largest death-tolls known to man. I think it's time for some of yous to pick up a book and learn a bit more about international relations, read up on history and thensome, cause believe you me, there's a lot more to these psychos than just religion and the era people we're living in prior WW2 for example, some of you would be bought as much as them. Shit, then I can say retarded shit like Institutionalized Atheism in the form of Communism has killed millions over the last 100 years, but it's much more complicated than that. Either way, that's beside the issue.
Now, I was raised in a Catholic household, but it was never forced upon me. My parents never force-fed me any of it, I was generally free to choose as a please. So, why is it beneficial to me? Simple, how about it makes me comfortable to believe in God. It makes me happy. At one point in my life, I didn't believe in fuck all, and I wasn't crucified (no pun intended) for it. Eventually, I started believing in it once again (due to personal reasons in which I don't feel like sharing), and I am much happier, I feel less pissed off with the world and more.
So, here's my question to you all, who are you (and by you I means those who judge, mock and ridicule) to deny someone happiness, or living comfortably and has no intentions of committing vicious crimes?
If you certainly feel you are all better, like I said, you're the same as those religious nuts, only difference is, you're not Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, or even fucking Raelians, you're Athiests, same shit, diferent packaging. If you guys can't look back at your posts and see what I just wrote and notice nothing wrong, then you guys are delusional, and just have a hard time putting your pride aside.
I wonder how some of you can even look at your doctors. These men of science and logic are some of the most religious individuals ever. All the stats and surveys have proven it, more than 70% in some occasions believe in a God. Judaism being generally #1 religion followed by these MDs. There's no real point in throwing out these stats and studies to be honest, I'm just showing as much as you guys can throw studies, I can throw as much back. It's a never ending circle.
Oh also, when it comes to sacred text interpretation, there are lots of methods, cause I recall reading that somewhere in this thread about it all.
Moral method: People trying to learn lessons from the bible for example, and use it in the moral structure of their lives.
Mystical Method: Trying to use the text and apply it to a deeper understanding of God or a spiritual being
Allegorical Method: Don't take the book, face-value, but as an allegory of something else
Literal Method: Taking the book, face-value.
Historical Critical Method (which is what I generally stick to, it is my field after all lol): Looks at the sacred text in it's historical context, intended audience of the author(s) and the desired effect of the author(s).
By the way, props to Sofi and Jokerman for actually being able to discuss this in a civilized manner.
PS: Casey, I'm gonna wait for the HTC Lancaster.
Thanks for the info in my Palm Pre threadEdit: I hope you're all happy, I was about to go to bed, but all that typing woke me up. Eat shit mother fuckers.
My best friend is a muslim. Since he was born into a turkish family, he was brought up in a muslim environment you might say. However, somewhere along the way, he kinda lost his faith and turned away from islam. After spending some time reading up about different religions, philosophy and stuff like that he found his way back to islam and became a muslim again (if you could phrase it like this).
I know that his belief in god makes him in some way happier than without it. I totally accept that and its nothing that brings problems to our friendship. Not at all.
When we often talked about this topic in the past though, i told him straight up its far away from logic to believe in god or to believe that the quran was dictated by an angel. In fact, i think its idiotic.
Obviously, i dont think hes a dumbass in general. Its just this one thing about him or his way of thinking that i cant understand. I dont respect it, but i tolerate it i would say because like you said, Flip, he harms no one with what he is doing/thinking.
I know that his belief in god makes him in some way happier than without it. I totally accept that and its nothing that brings problems to our friendship. Not at all.
When we often talked about this topic in the past though, i told him straight up its far away from logic to believe in god or to believe that the quran was dictated by an angel. In fact, i think its idiotic.
Obviously, i dont think hes a dumbass in general. Its just this one thing about him or his way of thinking that i cant understand. I dont respect it, but i tolerate it i would say because like you said, Flip, he harms no one with what he is doing/thinking.
^let's discuss honestly that quotation. We are being accused of judging, mocking and ridiculing, but all we are trying to do is enlighten. Honestly, that's all. Believe me, there is no greater frustration than knowing you are right and being unable to convince others of the truth.
The simple fact is that religious people, despite how happy they may be, are still living in a pretend world and that makes their happiness detrimental to mine.
The simple fact is that religious people, despite how happy they may be, are still living in a pretend world and that makes their happiness detrimental to mine.
and neither do the majority tbf.
you'll always get lunatics though.
Its like the supporters of a football team. Most of the supporters come to sing and cheer on their team and watch the football, but there are always a minority who want to bring violence into it and start trouble. This minority are the ones that tarnish the image of the whole club.
you'll always get lunatics though.
Its like the supporters of a football team. Most of the supporters come to sing and cheer on their team and watch the football, but there are always a minority who want to bring violence into it and start trouble. This minority are the ones that tarnish the image of the whole club.
And deeply religious individuals will say they're trying to enlight you, as ridiculous as that may sound to you. As for pretend world, they still follow the same laws you, or I have. They work and provide for their families, go to school, and are productive members of society and humanitarians, just like the next man who may be Agnostic, Athiest or Muslim. Some are politicans, biologists and engineers who accomplish great feats of sciences while believing in their own spirituality on their own watch, not someone elses.
I don't see how someone like a doctor who is deeply religious, works all day for his patients, comes home to his family every night, maybe goes to church every sunday, minds his business and never imposes himself on anymore is detrimental to your happiness. If all that is, i suggest you seek therapy, there may be unlining issues to your lack of happiness.
Now, if you're referring to assholes that go around protesting every crap in the name of God or Allah, then go ahead, be unhappy about it. I'm personally pissed off myself when I see it, but I know for the most part, religious people are not that way.
You think me as a Catholic I was never shat on? Man, I've been shat on by Protestants just cause I'm not the same denomination, and the worst part of it; they didn't even know anything about me, what I was about, or what exactly I believe in. Those are the mother fuckers you ahve to watch out for, those that put religion ahead of their families and humanity, which I can confidently say; are not the majority of individuals.
By the way, props Sebastian. It's fine that you don't respect whatever beliefs, we all do it daily when it comes to Politics for example, but you tolerate it, and don't let it destroy your friendship which is most important, and that is what generally is missing between the whole issue of religion VS athiesm. I've seen instances where Religion and Science have been in agreement, and it's quite something.
I don't see how someone like a doctor who is deeply religious, works all day for his patients, comes home to his family every night, maybe goes to church every sunday, minds his business and never imposes himself on anymore is detrimental to your happiness. If all that is, i suggest you seek therapy, there may be unlining issues to your lack of happiness.
Now, if you're referring to assholes that go around protesting every crap in the name of God or Allah, then go ahead, be unhappy about it. I'm personally pissed off myself when I see it, but I know for the most part, religious people are not that way.
You think me as a Catholic I was never shat on? Man, I've been shat on by Protestants just cause I'm not the same denomination, and the worst part of it; they didn't even know anything about me, what I was about, or what exactly I believe in. Those are the mother fuckers you ahve to watch out for, those that put religion ahead of their families and humanity, which I can confidently say; are not the majority of individuals.
By the way, props Sebastian. It's fine that you don't respect whatever beliefs, we all do it daily when it comes to Politics for example, but you tolerate it, and don't let it destroy your friendship which is most important, and that is what generally is missing between the whole issue of religion VS athiesm. I've seen instances where Religion and Science have been in agreement, and it's quite something.
I have respect for a religious person that believes "in the notion of a God", but doesn't attach any certainties to that. If you believe in an ultimate Creator, whoever that may be and whereever he or she came from, FINE. I don't care. Hell, I don't even categorically *deny* the existence of such an entity.
Where it rubs me the wrong way, though, is when religious people start defying science with their bullshit. Creationism, that type of nonsense, I cannot have any respect for that. If you literally believe what some millennia old book said about fictional stuff, you're a cocksucker imo and you're holding humanity back.
If you just believe in a higher being and basically agree with the basis of whatever religion, without attaching fairy tale bullshit, you're okay in my book.
Where it rubs me the wrong way, though, is when religious people start defying science with their bullshit. Creationism, that type of nonsense, I cannot have any respect for that. If you literally believe what some millennia old book said about fictional stuff, you're a cocksucker imo and you're holding humanity back.
If you just believe in a higher being and basically agree with the basis of whatever religion, without attaching fairy tale bullshit, you're okay in my book.
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